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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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hello and welcome to the skeptic zone

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episode number 237 for the fourth of may

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2013 Richard Saunders here with you from

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Sydney Australia now before we get into

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what's coming up on this week's show in

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the past week it came to my attention

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that something i said are on a skeptical

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activism panel in manchester the QED con

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may have been taken the wrong way maybe

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in fact i think it was in certain

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quarters anyway i issued this statement

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a couple of days ago on facebook and

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well i'll repeat it here during a panel

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at the recent QED con in Manchester I

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made comments that seem to have caused

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some concern when trying to emphasize

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the importance of being careful and

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doing your homework when being an active

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skeptic it is possible I was clumsy with

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my words having just come off the main

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stage maybe my thoughts weren't as sharp

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as they should have been if anyone got

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the impression that I was discouraging

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grass-roots skeptical activism or that

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this work should be left to those with

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more expertise then I do apologize

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indeed Michael Marshall pick me up on my

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comment to clarify what I had just said

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and I immediately agreed with him to be

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clear we need grassroots activism and I

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encourage it many of the promos on the

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skeptic zone are indeed for grass roots

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skeptics my main message albeit not as

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clear as it should have been was to take

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care well there you go i hope that

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clears up any confusion or people

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weren't exactly sure what i was getting

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out at the time i hope that makes that

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clear but coming up on this week's show

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it's back to Manchester back to QED con

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when I chat to dr. Colin right dr. Colin

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right is involved with something called

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maths Jam he's a mathematician he's a

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juggler and he does

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he's a sort of a guy he sort of reminds

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me of the doctor you know in Doctor Who

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so he carries this little case around

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with him in he opens it up and out pops

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all sorts of surprises and tricks and

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puzzles and problems and illusions it's

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it's it's quite something anyway I'm

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going to have a chat with dr. Colin

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right coming up at the top of the show

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and after that it's a week in science

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with our good friend dr. Paul with us

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from the Royal Institution of Australia

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at RI aus org a you it seems like every

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week is another big week in science well

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that's true following that dr. Rachel

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reports a very different dr. HC a very

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different doctor AG doctor 'he was on

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ABC radio in melbourne in the past week

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on 774 with Richard Stubbs so dr. Rachel

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reports this week is her appearance on

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Melbourne radio talking about

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vaccination issues and she even takes

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Colin talk back that's very interesting

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good on your doctor AG good on you for

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getting out there in on the the

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mainstream media and we thank very much

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thank 774 ABC radio for this audio and

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to round off the show Maynard spooky

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action you can't keep him away you can't

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keep a good man down may not heads back

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to Sydney skeptics in the pub and ask

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the big question the big question this

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week should skeptics still investigate

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UFOs hmm find out what Sydney skeptic

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and the pub people think later in the

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show now thank you to all the people

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have been writing in saying how much

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they enjoyed our little space adventure

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all stop captain right chief Chen I need

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dirt five now can we do it captain that

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emergency stop burnt out the antimatter

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exchange the relay couplings the

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microwave super heater and my hair dryer

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chief we need dirt five hair dryer or

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not hi captain chat out if you haven't

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heard of these is at wwc a petting zoo

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TV scroll down a little bit and you can

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see the link for solar flare a lot of

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work went into that and we had an

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enormous amount of fun putting that all

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together it did take a long time longer

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than I would have thought that when you

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listen to it I think you'll understand

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why the production that went into it was

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it was quite something but yeah lots of

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good comments coming back lots of emails

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i've been getting here people telling me

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there laughs laughter certain parts of

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their Anatomy off listening to it that's

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all very encouraging and if you liked

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solar flare if you thought it was great

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fun please spread the word please blog

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it Twitter right to your friends in your

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enemies and tell them to give solar

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flare I listened maybe they'll enjoy it

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now our friends down in Canberra the

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acct the Australian Capital Territory

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our nation's capital have been very busy

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as always and they've been very kind

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they've invited me to come and give a

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talk so I'll be appearing in Canberra on

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jun the first june the first from 1 30

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to three o'clock at the lecture theatre

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CSIRO discovery center which is in

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clooney's ross street acton in the acct

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and i'll be giving my talk adventures of

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a paranormal investigator or don't come

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the raw prawn with me ghost spoon

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bending mind tricks talking with the

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dead water divining and anti-vaccination

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movement all come under the microscope

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in this talk and demonstration so that's

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the first of june are for more

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information visit www.pay xorg a you

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this is the torque I've been doing

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around the world lately

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including places like Oslo and Ireland

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was it entirely appropriate because

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after the after the talk will be heading

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for King o'malley's irish pub i hope to

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see you there well that's enough from me

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for this introduction it's time for me

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to run downstairs and have some let me

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see can you guess but you can't

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spaghetti on toast well I do that I hope

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you enjoy the skeptic zone dr. Colin

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right what is what is this math Jam

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maths kamath jam yeah bit of a tongue

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twister tell us all about it the basic

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idea of maths Jam is that a guy called

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matt parker had some friends he actually

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has friends and they were gathered

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together in a pub one evening in london

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and somebody showed a new gimmick that

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they had a new toy that they had and

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they were all science-based people so

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they started to play with that and then

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somebody else had another had a puzzle

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that they showed and so they started

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talking about puzzles and games and

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maths and those sorts of toys and they

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said yeah we should do this more often

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we don't get a chance to just kind of

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geek out together and swap these sorts

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of games and puzzles and so on so said

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well yeah let's meet up again and so it

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started that the second last Tuesday of

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every month they get a group of people

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and they would just go to a pub and

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commandeer a table and and start to do

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maths with each other and burnt puzzles

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and games and toys not specifically

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calculations in fact pretty much

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specifically not calculations and was in

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a pub so it was adults sharing amongst

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themselves as as as is equals almost

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although you've caused some of them work

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more mathematically able and some were

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less mathematically able but that didn't

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matter because they were sharing fun

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games toys puzzles and so on

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and then I I went to a big conference in

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America and came back to another

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conference here and and one of my

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friends said yet there's this there's no

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place for adults to chat about maths

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there are so many that there are serious

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conferences about education and maths

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education but there's no idiots to get

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together and play and so I went and

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talked to Matt and James grime who goes

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out here's another math guy who goes out

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and talks to two school kids and adults

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and so forth and we got together he said

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well how can we do this and so we got

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together to run a weekend of exactly

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this kind of thing it's not attached to

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education it's not attached to

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continuing professional development it's

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not worthy it's just let's get together

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and have fun as a side effect there's a

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bunch of stuff that people take back to

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their schools to get kids interested

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puzzles toys games and so forth but we

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have a wide range of people we have an

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Egyptologist who comes and talks about

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the maths in ancient Egypt we have a

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linguist who comes and talks about

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patterns in language a musicologist who

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comes we have retired math lecturers we

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do have students come along because this

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is not in a pub so we can have some

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younger kids come along but it's for

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adults to play with the mathematical

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ideas it's not to be attached to

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education or to train people and all the

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talks are five minutes five minutes five

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minutes which it makes them the person

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giving the talk really think about what

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they're going to say right oh yeah and

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the other thing is you can't try and

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teach people things in five minutes all

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you can do is show them something that

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you think is interesting and you think

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that they will find interesting so you

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are sharing something that you find

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interesting and we've got sort of 100 to

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150 people come along to these weekends

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and amongst them they will sup be some

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who just don't care about what you just

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showed them but there will be others who

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think that is really cool and then come

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and talk to you and that's the other big

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thing is only sixty percent of the time

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is actually spent in sessions in talks

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so we have an hour of talks we fit fit

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eight or nine talks in an hour

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and then we have 30 minutes as a break

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for people to play with toys that are on

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the tables or to talk to the speakers

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from the previous session and then we go

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back for another eight or nine Talt in

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an hour and then we have another half an

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hour breaks is plenty of time for people

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to play with the toys that are there

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play games against each other try and

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construct the models that they've got or

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talk to the speakers about what they're

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interested in now if our listeners care

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to find out more about this where is the

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URL what work may visit www.fcn com it's

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pretty easy to remember and you have a

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conundrum for our listeners may be a

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really cool one if you take a square yes

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it's really easy to cut it into pieces

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identical pieces where all of them touch

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the center right first question in how

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many ways can you do this that's a tough

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one but the second question is if you

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cut a circle in two identical pieces

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it's hard to think of any way of doing

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it where they don't all touch the center

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I mean you just slice it up like a pizza

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yeah so the challenge is cut a circle in

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two identical pieces that do not all

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touch the center point we have a little

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audience listening to our interview

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that's a good one oh I listeners there's

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a little conundrum for you and visit the

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greetings skeptics erm listeners do you

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know what to do in August come to

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Stockholm Sweden and meet astronaut

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killer tofu lasagna activist hey Lee

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Stevens / guru upon snow sleen

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undercover health journalist an abyssea

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and many more at the 15th European

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skeptics Congress friday the

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twenty-third to sunday the 25th of

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august in stockholm sweden but a 15th

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european skeptics conference www dr.

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Euroskeptic Scarlett I'm talking www

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welcome to a week in science from our

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aisles this week a new bird flu the

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evolution of taller thinner women and

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tiny flying robots Chinese scientists

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have confirmed that a new influenza

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virus has been transmitted from birds to

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humans 108 people our thoughts have been

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infected with the h7n9 virus since it

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first emerged in February this year with

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a suspected death toll of 22 people

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appear to have picked up the virus from

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chickens in meat markets in a separate

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study scientists have identified a

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possible way that the h5n1 form of bird

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flu which first emerged in 2003 infects

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humans Australian researchers may have

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found a cheap and easy way to detect

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early cases of Alzheimer's disease

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symptoms of Alzheimer's only show up

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after significant damages occurred to

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the brain and currently early detection

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tests are invasive and expensive the

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research found compounds in the blood

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that differed between people with high

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and low risks of developing the disease

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this new blood signature could allow

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widespread screening and early

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interventions that may slow the

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progression of Alzheimer's girls who

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receive two doses of the HPV vaccine had

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the same protection as those who had the

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recommended three doses in an effort to

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protect bees the European Union has

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announced severe restrictions on the use

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of three pesticides cicadas clean

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themselves by making dewdrops jump from

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their wings and living longer and having

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fewer children maybe making women taller

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and thinner scientists at Harvard

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University have built a flying robot

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that is no bigger than a house fly they

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used cutting edge materials to build

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micro structures within the wing

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allowing it to flap when electrified the

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tiny robot offers a new way to study the

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flight mechanics of flapping

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wings as well as helping miniaturized

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if you love a week in science and why

325
00:15:59,829 --> 00:15:57,830
wouldn't you why not share it with your

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00:16:01,540 --> 00:15:59,839
friends we're growing a healthy

327
00:16:06,519 --> 00:16:01,550
following and you can help spread the

328
00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:06,529
word send your friends to RI aus org a

329
00:16:12,820 --> 00:16:10,130
you / week in sai for video and podcasts

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00:16:14,860 --> 00:16:12,830
versions plus more information on the

331
00:16:17,019 --> 00:16:14,870
stories that's been the highlights of

332
00:16:19,269 --> 00:16:17,029
another big week in science for more

333
00:16:23,410 --> 00:16:19,279
information and other science news check

334
00:16:26,079 --> 00:16:23,420
out the are isles website RI aus dot org

335
00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:26,089
dot a you where you can also sign up for

336
00:16:31,510 --> 00:16:28,850
notifications of future episodes you can

337
00:16:35,260 --> 00:16:31,520
also follow a week in science on twitter

338
00:16:37,329 --> 00:16:35,270
using the hashtag week inside i'm poor

339
00:16:48,220 --> 00:16:37,339
willis and on behalf of the our oils

340
00:16:50,199 --> 00:16:48,230
team i'll see you next week this is

341
00:16:53,079 --> 00:16:50,209
desiree host of Canadian radio shows

342
00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:53,089
skeptically speaking for those of you

343
00:16:57,820 --> 00:16:55,250
that don't know Kenneth is quite similar

344
00:17:00,910 --> 00:16:57,830
to Australia people know is primarily

345
00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:00,920
for our weather and our beer and we have

346
00:17:07,390 --> 00:17:04,490
a queen just like you do same one as you

347
00:17:09,309 --> 00:17:07,400
do actually we also have mythical

348
00:17:11,710 --> 00:17:09,319
monsters and people who think they have

349
00:17:14,039 --> 00:17:11,720
psychic abilities and people who think

350
00:17:16,049 --> 00:17:14,049
that vaccinations are bad for you

351
00:17:22,669 --> 00:17:16,059
so keep listening to the skeptic zone

352
00:17:30,899 --> 00:17:26,069
now it's time for dr. Richie reports

353
00:17:33,269 --> 00:17:30,909
with dr. Rachel Dunlop we're going to

354
00:17:35,789 --> 00:17:33,279
look at immunization next and although

355
00:17:39,509 --> 00:17:35,799
the evidence against immunization has

356
00:17:41,609 --> 00:17:39,519
been completely debunked still people

357
00:17:44,820 --> 00:17:41,619
cling to the idea that immunization is

358
00:17:48,029 --> 00:17:44,830
somehow bad or dangerous or you

359
00:17:51,659 --> 00:17:48,039
shouldn't be careful look out are they

360
00:17:53,729 --> 00:17:51,669
risk involved in immunization sure what

361
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:53,739
likelihood of risk are they what level

362
00:17:57,899 --> 00:17:55,090
of risk are there and what a genuine

363
00:18:01,259 --> 00:17:57,909
risks as opposed to rumors and the

364
00:18:02,639 --> 00:18:01,269
hangovers have discounted evidence we're

365
00:18:04,229 --> 00:18:02,649
going to talk about that next it's very

366
00:18:06,239 --> 00:18:04,239
difficult to shake an opinion once

367
00:18:08,489 --> 00:18:06,249
you've formed it particularly if you've

368
00:18:12,539 --> 00:18:08,499
been vocal in that opinion if you've

369
00:18:14,970 --> 00:18:12,549
stood there and I get a case and then

370
00:18:17,009 --> 00:18:14,980
find out that the case you argued had no

371
00:18:20,999 --> 00:18:17,019
basis in fact it's often difficult to

372
00:18:24,539 --> 00:18:21,009
retract and call again as they lay out

373
00:18:27,450 --> 00:18:24,549
of line with that I guess it's part of

374
00:18:30,029 --> 00:18:27,460
why an anti immunization debate still

375
00:18:33,029 --> 00:18:30,039
exists that there's some undercurrent of

376
00:18:35,759 --> 00:18:33,039
uncertainty there's some ah but didn't I

377
00:18:38,099 --> 00:18:35,769
hear something interestingly the rates

378
00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:38,109
of immunization in Australia have fallen

379
00:18:42,509 --> 00:18:40,210
in some areas some areas of Australia

380
00:18:45,869 --> 00:18:42,519
there are people gain I choose not to

381
00:18:47,849 --> 00:18:45,879
immunize my children I wonder why rachel

382
00:18:49,529 --> 00:18:47,859
Dunlop is a postdoctoral fellow at the

383
00:18:51,090 --> 00:18:49,539
University of Technology in Sydney she

384
00:18:53,999 --> 00:18:51,100
recently wrote an article on the

385
00:18:55,649 --> 00:18:54,009
conversation about this hi Rachel hi

386
00:18:57,570 --> 00:18:55,659
Richard thanks for having me you're also

387
00:19:01,499 --> 00:18:57,580
vice president of Australian skeptics

388
00:19:03,409 --> 00:19:01,509
yes I am um what what prompted you to

389
00:19:05,249 --> 00:19:03,419
write the article in the first place

390
00:19:07,019 --> 00:19:05,259
well I've been studying the

391
00:19:08,789 --> 00:19:07,029
anti-vaccination movement in Australia

392
00:19:11,159 --> 00:19:08,799
for about three or four years now and

393
00:19:13,379 --> 00:19:11,169
the more you read the stuff that they

394
00:19:15,210 --> 00:19:13,389
write the more you see the same sort of

395
00:19:17,279 --> 00:19:15,220
things come up again and again and again

396
00:19:19,710 --> 00:19:17,289
and I guess some of them are what you

397
00:19:21,330 --> 00:19:19,720
call them unsinkable rubber ducks in a

398
00:19:23,190 --> 00:19:21,340
sense it doesn't matter how many times

399
00:19:24,989 --> 00:19:23,200
you refute them or you explain them to

400
00:19:27,630 --> 00:19:24,999
people they still seem to stick around

401
00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:27,640
and these things are quite

402
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:29,890
nash's and they can influence parents

403
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:32,410
decisions to vaccinate particularly

404
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:34,930
through their friends or you know their

405
00:19:38,490 --> 00:19:37,090
network of people around child care and

406
00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:38,500
that sort of thing so it's important I

407
00:19:42,510 --> 00:19:40,330
think to address them so that parents

408
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:42,520
have a cheat sheet in a way which they

409
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:45,330
can refer to and get some you know

410
00:19:48,570 --> 00:19:47,170
confidence that these things are

411
00:19:50,550 --> 00:19:48,580
actually myths they're not true then

412
00:19:53,010 --> 00:19:50,560
there's no evidence in in what these

413
00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:53,020
people are saying part of what grinds my

414
00:19:56,070 --> 00:19:54,970
gears about this argument is that people

415
00:19:58,410 --> 00:19:56,080
are willing to make decisions about

416
00:20:02,340 --> 00:19:58,420
their kids not getting immunized based

417
00:20:05,670 --> 00:20:02,350
on a conversation you know some friends

418
00:20:07,260 --> 00:20:05,680
said but if they they they won't

419
00:20:10,380 --> 00:20:07,270
research the facts and be if they do

420
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:10,390
that they look with suspicion on Western

421
00:20:14,940 --> 00:20:11,770
medicine I'm doing that thing with my

422
00:20:18,020 --> 00:20:14,950
fingers and scientific findings yeah so

423
00:20:21,570 --> 00:20:18,030
so that rumor and innuendo from a

424
00:20:24,330 --> 00:20:21,580
unscientific no knowledge base person is

425
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:24,340
somehow given more weight than I yeah

426
00:20:28,620 --> 00:20:25,930
well this is what several years of

427
00:20:30,990 --> 00:20:28,630
research and science shows us why is

428
00:20:33,180 --> 00:20:31,000
there it's curious isn't it and I think

429
00:20:36,390 --> 00:20:33,190
it's partly because anecdotes are very

430
00:20:37,950 --> 00:20:36,400
powerful things there's some psychology

431
00:20:40,110 --> 00:20:37,960
behind that I'm not a psychologist so I

432
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:40,120
couldn't begin to explain it but the

433
00:20:44,460 --> 00:20:42,610
power of anecdote is very strong the

434
00:20:47,310 --> 00:20:44,470
thing about science is it can be pretty

435
00:20:49,470 --> 00:20:47,320
boring it can be pretty dry and people

436
00:20:51,060 --> 00:20:49,480
don't generally relate to it so I can

437
00:20:53,220 --> 00:20:51,070
you know sit here and put up graphs

438
00:20:55,860 --> 00:20:53,230
until the cows come home showing you the

439
00:20:58,170 --> 00:20:55,870
evidence that once we introduced the Hib

440
00:20:59,850 --> 00:20:58,180
vaccine in nineteen ninety four cases

441
00:21:02,040 --> 00:20:59,860
dropped ninety percent but that's not

442
00:21:03,810 --> 00:21:02,050
particularly a motive and when you have

443
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:03,820
stories of children that have been

444
00:21:08,550 --> 00:21:06,490
injured by vaccines or their parents say

445
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:08,560
that they have that stuff is incredibly

446
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:11,770
emotive and there are some yes are you

447
00:21:15,180 --> 00:21:13,450
wearing your insignia no we're going to

448
00:21:16,830 --> 00:21:15,190
buy into each other a little bit so yeah

449
00:21:18,540 --> 00:21:16,840
we weren't worried about that there's

450
00:21:21,210 --> 00:21:18,550
also that other thing too that people

451
00:21:25,410 --> 00:21:21,220
gah pharmaceutical companies make money

452
00:21:26,610 --> 00:21:25,420
out of vaccines so always going to say

453
00:21:27,990 --> 00:21:26,620
you should have them and everyone not

454
00:21:29,700 --> 00:21:28,000
yeah that's are you there must be the

455
00:21:31,290 --> 00:21:29,710
reason I mean of course they make money

456
00:21:33,870 --> 00:21:31,300
that you know there are business but in

457
00:21:36,060 --> 00:21:33,880
fact it most of their profit does not

458
00:21:38,070 --> 00:21:36,070
come from making vaccinations and when

459
00:21:40,230 --> 00:21:38,080
you think about it logically wouldn't it

460
00:21:41,490 --> 00:21:40,240
be more beneficial for pharmaceutical

461
00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:41,500
companies if we all got the

462
00:21:45,660 --> 00:21:43,090
diseases because then we'd be sicker

463
00:21:47,430 --> 00:21:45,670
sticker for longer we probably have

464
00:21:49,710 --> 00:21:47,440
chronic side effects chronic long-term

465
00:21:52,050 --> 00:21:49,720
effects surely that would make them more

466
00:21:54,750 --> 00:21:52,060
money than preventive medicine which is

467
00:21:56,700 --> 00:21:54,760
essentially what vaccines are what

468
00:21:59,220 --> 00:21:56,710
you've studied this for so long what's

469
00:22:01,820 --> 00:21:59,230
the thinking behind people who don't

470
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:01,830
have their child vaccinated in Australia

471
00:22:07,650 --> 00:22:04,450
particularly in terms of what happens if

472
00:22:10,020 --> 00:22:07,660
that child then goes overseas yeah this

473
00:22:11,850 --> 00:22:10,030
is a really tricky situation because I

474
00:22:13,310 --> 00:22:11,860
guess there's two camps in Australia

475
00:22:15,390 --> 00:22:13,320
there's what we know as the

476
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:15,400
conscientious objectors and these are

477
00:22:19,650 --> 00:22:17,250
parents that have identified as

478
00:22:21,210 --> 00:22:19,660
objecting to vaccinations and they've

479
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:21,220
actually signed a form to say they will

480
00:22:24,870 --> 00:22:23,050
not get their children vaccinated and

481
00:22:27,210 --> 00:22:24,880
then there's probably a large percentage

482
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:27,220
and that that group is only about one

483
00:22:31,140 --> 00:22:28,890
point seven percent of the population

484
00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:31,150
but there's a group that we can't really

485
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:33,130
quantitate or measure and that's called

486
00:22:37,770 --> 00:22:34,690
the fence sitters and their parents that

487
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:37,780
are just confused and worried about the

488
00:22:41,790 --> 00:22:39,610
rumors that they hear and so they might

489
00:22:44,910 --> 00:22:41,800
either delay their kids vaccination or

490
00:22:46,260 --> 00:22:44,920
they might not get the full schedule of

491
00:22:48,570 --> 00:22:46,270
vaccination because of things that

492
00:22:50,430 --> 00:22:48,580
they've heard but as you say this does

493
00:22:53,700 --> 00:22:50,440
impact on children down the track and

494
00:22:55,860 --> 00:22:53,710
only two years ago in Brisbane a 22 year

495
00:22:57,570 --> 00:22:55,870
old girl died of diphtheria after a

496
00:22:59,820 --> 00:22:57,580
friend of hers brought it back from

497
00:23:01,410 --> 00:22:59,830
overseas and she probably didn't even

498
00:23:03,180 --> 00:23:01,420
realize she wasn't vaccinated for

499
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:03,190
diphtheria and unfortunately she caught

500
00:23:08,340 --> 00:23:06,730
it and she died so in Australia now most

501
00:23:10,290 --> 00:23:08,350
of the diseases that we see here are

502
00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:10,300
imported and because we have a fairly

503
00:23:15,420 --> 00:23:12,910
high level of vaccination in general and

504
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:15,430
in on average so mostly when you see

505
00:23:18,090 --> 00:23:16,810
those sort of things happen it's because

506
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:18,100
they're brought in from overseas or

507
00:23:23,070 --> 00:23:20,410
people pick them up overseas John's

508
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:23,080
called in from Q hi John yes look I

509
00:23:27,690 --> 00:23:24,850
bought it just to make a few points of

510
00:23:29,340 --> 00:23:27,700
the problem with vaccinations is that

511
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:29,350
they're not based on the gold standard

512
00:23:34,470 --> 00:23:31,450
of scientific proof which is the control

513
00:23:36,930 --> 00:23:34,480
trial that compares vaccinated to an

514
00:23:39,570 --> 00:23:36,940
unvaccinated population and if that is

515
00:23:41,700 --> 00:23:39,580
done we know for sure whether vaccines

516
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:41,710
to help to reduce the incidence of the

517
00:23:47,460 --> 00:23:43,810
infectious disease they're intended for

518
00:23:49,470 --> 00:23:47,470
and also that the vaccinated group is it

519
00:23:52,230 --> 00:23:49,480
does not suffer adverse effects which

520
00:23:52,940 --> 00:23:52,240
would outweigh the benefits now that is

521
00:23:54,980 --> 00:23:52,950
not been

522
00:23:57,650 --> 00:23:54,990
and that's the problem now if you look

523
00:23:59,780 --> 00:23:57,660
at the whooping cough vaccination that

524
00:24:03,110 --> 00:23:59,790
with the acellular vaccine this was

525
00:24:06,230 --> 00:24:03,120
found that the epidemic that came it was

526
00:24:07,790 --> 00:24:06,240
in Australia the vaccination offered no

527
00:24:11,420 --> 00:24:07,800
benefit in terms of reducing the

528
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:11,430
incidence the vaccination rates were

529
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:13,770
about ninety percent of the cases

530
00:24:18,410 --> 00:24:16,050
eighty-nine percent were vaccinated and

531
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:18,420
Levin were unvaccinated which means that

532
00:24:22,700 --> 00:24:19,890
the vaccination made no difference at

533
00:24:24,770 --> 00:24:22,710
all there is no a data about this severe

534
00:24:27,110 --> 00:24:24,780
the intensity of the infection so we

535
00:24:30,050 --> 00:24:27,120
can't report on that but that was based

536
00:24:32,510 --> 00:24:30,060
on analysis of the statistics after the

537
00:24:34,250 --> 00:24:32,520
event first on do you think um do you

538
00:24:36,290 --> 00:24:34,260
think people should vaccinate their

539
00:24:38,150 --> 00:24:36,300
children I don't know because we don't

540
00:24:39,620 --> 00:24:38,160
have proof about safety or no no it's

541
00:24:41,360 --> 00:24:39,630
just an opinion what's your opinion I

542
00:24:43,130 --> 00:24:41,370
don't know because what you know that we

543
00:24:44,870 --> 00:24:43,140
do not have the proper data about safety

544
00:24:46,750 --> 00:24:44,880
even if he's there let me put in other

545
00:24:49,430 --> 00:24:46,760
ways they were benefit to the Society of

546
00:24:51,500 --> 00:24:49,440
everyone's vaccinated there may be there

547
00:24:53,810 --> 00:24:51,510
may not be we don't know so you now did

548
00:24:55,460 --> 00:24:53,820
I comment on that Richard I've just I

549
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:55,470
wanted to get let John get all his

550
00:24:59,570 --> 00:24:57,570
points out and make his case what do you

551
00:25:00,950 --> 00:24:59,580
think he said that this that we can't

552
00:25:03,950 --> 00:25:00,960
compare this that we just don't know

553
00:25:05,060 --> 00:25:03,960
we've never compared a vaccinated

554
00:25:07,220 --> 00:25:05,070
population with a non-vaccinated

555
00:25:10,730 --> 00:25:07,230
population so we have no idea if it's

556
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:10,740
effective well we have actually but the

557
00:25:15,110 --> 00:25:12,930
point that you raised initially about

558
00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:15,120
the randomized controlled trial or we

559
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:17,130
can't do that ethically because a

560
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:18,810
randomized control trial would involve

561
00:25:23,090 --> 00:25:20,850
taking two groups let's say of children

562
00:25:25,670 --> 00:25:23,100
putting them into two separate rooms

563
00:25:27,170 --> 00:25:25,680
vaccinating one group not vaccinating

564
00:25:29,660 --> 00:25:27,180
the other group and exposing them to a

565
00:25:31,790 --> 00:25:29,670
vaccine preventable disease now how does

566
00:25:33,710 --> 00:25:31,800
everyone think about doing that so it

567
00:25:35,300 --> 00:25:33,720
doesn't sound like a very good idea what

568
00:25:36,830 --> 00:25:35,310
that means John's right isn't he that he

569
00:25:38,450 --> 00:25:36,840
did we haven't got a gold down we

570
00:25:41,210 --> 00:25:38,460
haven't got that classic song no but I

571
00:25:44,090 --> 00:25:41,220
study so there no how can we be certain

572
00:25:46,940 --> 00:25:44,100
about because we have epidemiology we

573
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:46,950
have a lot of evidence from history that

574
00:25:51,470 --> 00:25:49,410
shows us that vaccination reduces

575
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:51,480
vaccine-preventable diseases now for

576
00:25:55,910 --> 00:25:53,850
example when we stopped vaccinating in

577
00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:55,920
particular areas we see a resurgence of

578
00:26:00,230 --> 00:25:57,690
vaccine-preventable diseases what happen

579
00:26:01,940 --> 00:26:00,240
in Wales yeah well this is the thing I

580
00:26:03,860 --> 00:26:01,950
mean it's a good point you raised John

581
00:26:05,540 --> 00:26:03,870
because at the moment because of low

582
00:26:06,590 --> 00:26:05,550
levels of vaccination for measles in

583
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:06,600
Wales

584
00:26:10,730 --> 00:26:08,610
there's been an outbreak of measles

585
00:26:14,090 --> 00:26:10,740
there's now up to about a thousand cases

586
00:26:15,110 --> 00:26:14,100
and one death the man who died did have

587
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:15,120
measles and we're waiting for

588
00:26:19,310 --> 00:26:16,890
confirmation as to whether that was the

589
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:19,320
cause but we had levels dropped there

590
00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:21,210
because people were afraid of the MMR

591
00:26:24,529 --> 00:26:23,130
vaccine and so we as soon as levels

592
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:24,539
dropped we got an increase in vaccine

593
00:26:29,990 --> 00:26:26,490
preventable diseases now the other thing

594
00:26:31,940 --> 00:26:30,000
is with smallpox now well we got rid of

595
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:31,950
smallpox because we vaccinated until it

596
00:26:37,159 --> 00:26:35,490
was gone polio is almost gone we had two

597
00:26:39,950 --> 00:26:37,169
years free of polio and India just

598
00:26:41,659 --> 00:26:39,960
recently so we don't need to do what

599
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:41,669
John says is the gold standard it's

600
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:43,650
unethical to do it and we don't need it

601
00:26:48,409 --> 00:26:45,210
because we've got plenty of evidence for

602
00:26:50,360 --> 00:26:48,419
it John can't doesn't agreed can't form

603
00:26:51,710 --> 00:26:50,370
an opinion about immunization or not

604
00:26:53,779 --> 00:26:51,720
because he says there's not enough

605
00:26:56,060 --> 00:26:53,789
evidence as to whether it works or not

606
00:26:57,620 --> 00:26:56,070
would you disagree I would disagree i

607
00:26:59,899 --> 00:26:57,630
would suggest that he might be looking

608
00:27:02,060 --> 00:26:59,909
in the wrong places and he did seem to

609
00:27:03,590 --> 00:27:02,070
quote some stats there which I think

610
00:27:05,930 --> 00:27:03,600
he's cherry-picking slightly because

611
00:27:07,820 --> 00:27:05,940
he's talking about the age group that a

612
00:27:09,409 --> 00:27:07,830
young children were with the whooping

613
00:27:12,919 --> 00:27:09,419
cough vaccine which is covered under the

614
00:27:15,169 --> 00:27:12,929
dtap now if you look at the number of

615
00:27:17,570 --> 00:27:15,179
adults in Australia who are immune and

616
00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:17,580
still vaccinated against whooping cough

617
00:27:22,430 --> 00:27:20,130
there's only about eleven percent so in

618
00:27:24,110 --> 00:27:22,440
kids yes it's up to about 90 but in

619
00:27:25,940 --> 00:27:24,120
adults it's down to around eleven

620
00:27:27,470 --> 00:27:25,950
percent so it's likely that it's the

621
00:27:29,210 --> 00:27:27,480
adults who haven't had their boosters

622
00:27:31,279 --> 00:27:29,220
that are responsible for the resurgence

623
00:27:32,690 --> 00:27:31,289
of whooping cough but of course you know

624
00:27:34,430 --> 00:27:32,700
there's lots of side effects of vaccines

625
00:27:38,899 --> 00:27:34,440
we know for example that vaccines cause

626
00:27:40,850 --> 00:27:38,909
autism Oh Richard you've opened a

627
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:40,860
Pandora's box there we know that

628
00:27:45,799 --> 00:27:43,890
vaccines don't cause autism actually but

629
00:27:47,270 --> 00:27:45,809
isn't it pernicious the way that stays

630
00:27:48,890 --> 00:27:47,280
despite evidence and you look at

631
00:27:50,750 --> 00:27:48,900
Scandinavian evidence and you look at

632
00:27:53,029 --> 00:27:50,760
you look at the evidence that it came

633
00:27:55,250 --> 00:27:53,039
from originally and how Lancet has come

634
00:28:00,110 --> 00:27:55,260
out and said this was biased this is

635
00:28:01,490 --> 00:28:00,120
been completely discredited and yet it

636
00:28:03,649 --> 00:28:01,500
sticks doesn't appear I guess because

637
00:28:06,230 --> 00:28:03,659
people with kids with autism a desperate

638
00:28:08,060 --> 00:28:06,240
to find out why and there's a smoking

639
00:28:09,980 --> 00:28:08,070
gun so someone somehow believes it's

640
00:28:11,990 --> 00:28:09,990
immunization well I think there's two

641
00:28:14,029 --> 00:28:12,000
reasons one of them is that we don't

642
00:28:17,810 --> 00:28:14,039
know yet exactly what causes autism

643
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:17,820
there's no cure for autism also the time

644
00:28:21,980 --> 00:28:20,490
of onset or diagnosis of autism Cohen

645
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:21,990
sides with the time that kids are

646
00:28:27,890 --> 00:28:25,410
receiving quite a few vaccinations so it

647
00:28:29,510 --> 00:28:27,900
looks if someone if the child gets a

648
00:28:32,419 --> 00:28:29,520
vaccination and then they're diagnosed

649
00:28:34,220 --> 00:28:32,429
with autism that's a people make their

650
00:28:35,540 --> 00:28:34,230
connection well it must be the vaccine

651
00:28:37,820 --> 00:28:35,550
because they were fine before they got

652
00:28:39,380 --> 00:28:37,830
that and of course that is a connection

653
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:39,390
that people will make but it's not the

654
00:28:43,370 --> 00:28:41,370
case what do we say correlation isn't

655
00:28:45,020 --> 00:28:43,380
cause it's not equals causation yeah I

656
00:28:47,030 --> 00:28:45,030
mean it's like saying I go to bed every

657
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:47,040
night and the Sun comes up in the

658
00:28:50,810 --> 00:28:48,570
morning therefore I cause the Sun to

659
00:28:52,700 --> 00:28:50,820
come up well no that's going to happen

660
00:28:54,860 --> 00:28:52,710
anyway there's no relation but you

661
00:28:56,750 --> 00:28:54,870
didn't cause it yeah Rachel Dunlop is

662
00:28:58,490 --> 00:28:56,760
heading to a postdoctoral fellow at the

663
00:29:00,350 --> 00:28:58,500
University of Technology in Sydney where

664
00:29:01,570 --> 00:29:00,360
she is she written columns for the

665
00:29:03,530 --> 00:29:01,580
conversation that we're having

666
00:29:05,710 --> 00:29:03,540
conversation about she's also vice

667
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:05,720
president of the Australian skeptics

668
00:29:10,490 --> 00:29:07,410
incorporated as opposed to Vince

669
00:29:12,580 --> 00:29:10,500
Association and her study of fielder

670
00:29:14,630 --> 00:29:12,590
study has been immunization and

671
00:29:15,890 --> 00:29:14,640
immunology you know it's with that in

672
00:29:19,340 --> 00:29:15,900
mind that we're chatting about the rates

673
00:29:22,100 --> 00:29:19,350
of immunization in Australia why is this

674
00:29:24,290 --> 00:29:22,110
anyone's concern you know my kid is my

675
00:29:25,940 --> 00:29:24,300
kid my choices my choice shouldn't be of

676
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:25,950
concern to you and your vaccinated

677
00:29:31,190 --> 00:29:29,730
choice yeah I think a vaccination is

678
00:29:33,230 --> 00:29:31,200
more than a personal choice really its

679
00:29:36,020 --> 00:29:33,240
community responsibility and the reason

680
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:36,030
for that is that people that can't get

681
00:29:40,460 --> 00:29:38,250
fully that can't get vaccinated do exist

682
00:29:42,410 --> 00:29:40,470
in our community there are children who

683
00:29:44,660 --> 00:29:42,420
maybe are too young to have received all

684
00:29:46,669 --> 00:29:44,670
their vaccinations and so until they've

685
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:46,679
got their entire course of childhood

686
00:29:50,900 --> 00:29:49,050
schedule they are still vulnerable and

687
00:29:53,900 --> 00:29:50,910
they're still likely to catch

688
00:29:56,030 --> 00:29:53,910
vaccine-preventable diseases sorry yeah

689
00:29:58,130 --> 00:29:56,040
I can example that phase in ballarat Fey

690
00:29:59,360 --> 00:29:58,140
you know all about someone catching a

691
00:30:02,000 --> 00:29:59,370
disease when you're too young to be

692
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:02,010
vaccinated don't you yes my grandson was

693
00:30:06,380 --> 00:30:04,530
this and two months old when he came

694
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:06,390
contact with a child who had not been

695
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:08,570
vaccinated and obviously was carrying

696
00:30:14,930 --> 00:30:13,170
the germ whatever and we need yet he

697
00:30:18,740 --> 00:30:14,940
nearly died he was in and out of

698
00:30:21,020 --> 00:30:18,750
hospital for a year it was a being of

699
00:30:23,900 --> 00:30:21,030
pattern this was whooping cough in soft

700
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:23,910
yeah it is the most horrific thing to

701
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:26,010
watch because they literally stopped

702
00:30:31,190 --> 00:30:28,290
breathing and they turn blue and this

703
00:30:33,769 --> 00:30:31,200
tiny little baby of was just appalling

704
00:30:36,879 --> 00:30:33,779
so even if there was

705
00:30:40,039 --> 00:30:36,889
you know a chance I couldn't countenance

706
00:30:44,719 --> 00:30:40,049
people not having it issues we've had

707
00:30:46,310 --> 00:30:44,729
our boosters subsequent children but you

708
00:30:49,489 --> 00:30:46,320
know you look at a two month old child

709
00:30:50,899 --> 00:30:49,499
and I remember hearing on Reds program

710
00:30:53,239 --> 00:30:50,909
one time he was talking to a doctor

711
00:30:56,450 --> 00:30:53,249
whose own child was in that same

712
00:30:58,489 --> 00:30:56,460
situation and it was exactly the same

713
00:31:00,289 --> 00:30:58,499
time which is but these are people

714
00:31:01,849 --> 00:31:00,299
who've made a choice without seeing the

715
00:31:04,999 --> 00:31:01,859
wider picture that's impact on the

716
00:31:07,339 --> 00:31:05,009
society they live in rachel is probably

717
00:31:09,049 --> 00:31:07,349
outside our scope to to start to have a

718
00:31:10,459 --> 00:31:09,059
philosophical discussion event are we

719
00:31:12,979 --> 00:31:10,469
thinking of ourselves too much as a

720
00:31:15,799 --> 00:31:12,989
society unless about the needs of

721
00:31:17,719 --> 00:31:15,809
society in general and or does it lead

722
00:31:19,669 --> 00:31:17,729
us on to this kind of thinking but that

723
00:31:22,639 --> 00:31:19,679
heard let's talk for a moment about herd

724
00:31:24,709 --> 00:31:22,649
immunity what is that yeah well I prefer

725
00:31:26,029 --> 00:31:24,719
to call it community immunity Richard

726
00:31:28,399 --> 00:31:26,039
because it sounds a bit more warm and

727
00:31:30,649 --> 00:31:28,409
fuzzy and basically it means that we

728
00:31:32,690 --> 00:31:30,659
need a level of vaccination in the

729
00:31:34,669 --> 00:31:32,700
community to prevent the outbreak of

730
00:31:36,109 --> 00:31:34,679
disease and that varies for different

731
00:31:38,719 --> 00:31:36,119
vaccines it varies for different

732
00:31:40,969 --> 00:31:38,729
diseases but if we have roughly ninety

733
00:31:43,219 --> 00:31:40,979
five percent of the population immunized

734
00:31:45,229 --> 00:31:43,229
against a certain disease then there's

735
00:31:47,239 --> 00:31:45,239
no opportunity for it to have outbreaks

736
00:31:49,700 --> 00:31:47,249
and to spread through the community so

737
00:31:52,579 --> 00:31:49,710
we call this community immunity and that

738
00:31:54,409 --> 00:31:52,589
allows us to protect those like what

739
00:31:56,570 --> 00:31:54,419
Faye was referring to her grandson who

740
00:31:58,099 --> 00:31:56,580
got pertussis people that can't be

741
00:32:00,709 --> 00:31:58,109
vaccinated who may have cancer or

742
00:32:03,369 --> 00:32:00,719
receiving chemotherapy elderly people

743
00:32:05,959 --> 00:32:03,379
who are particularly susceptible to

744
00:32:08,690 --> 00:32:05,969
vaccine-preventable diseases and this

745
00:32:10,489 --> 00:32:08,700
stops these outbreaks from starting and

746
00:32:12,019 --> 00:32:10,499
we can when this herd immunity or

747
00:32:13,369 --> 00:32:12,029
community I mean that he breaks down

748
00:32:14,899 --> 00:32:13,379
that's when we see these

749
00:32:16,549 --> 00:32:14,909
vaccine-preventable disease of course

750
00:32:18,859 --> 00:32:16,559
before it breaks down there's a certain

751
00:32:20,839 --> 00:32:18,869
number who can slip stream the herd by

752
00:32:23,959 --> 00:32:20,849
not having it done but figuring that

753
00:32:26,029 --> 00:32:23,969
I've on LC I need some it is my child

754
00:32:28,070 --> 00:32:26,039
yeah they're relying on the herd if you

755
00:32:30,169 --> 00:32:28,080
like to protect themselves and so this

756
00:32:32,089 --> 00:32:30,179
is when people will say well my child

757
00:32:34,369 --> 00:32:32,099
has never been vaccinated and he or she

758
00:32:35,959 --> 00:32:34,379
is still very healthy well in most cases

759
00:32:38,180 --> 00:32:35,969
you're relying on the fact that everyone

760
00:32:41,570 --> 00:32:38,190
else around you is vaccine don't go to

761
00:32:45,289 --> 00:32:41,580
parts of Africa and not ours the same

762
00:32:46,669 --> 00:32:45,299
man is intuitive hey Graham hello Graham

763
00:32:47,830 --> 00:32:46,679
what were you what did you want to say

764
00:32:51,230 --> 00:32:47,840
about the Italian Court

765
00:32:54,410 --> 00:32:51,240
the italian court found that the MMR

766
00:32:59,420 --> 00:32:54,420
vaccine causes autism what you is that

767
00:33:03,020 --> 00:32:59,430
that is 2012 so in your mind what does

768
00:33:05,180 --> 00:33:03,030
that mean that means that when the child

769
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:05,190
when they had the vaccine and they go

770
00:33:09,710 --> 00:33:07,170
home and they their crook the next day

771
00:33:13,100 --> 00:33:09,720
and they say well it's just a case of

772
00:33:15,050 --> 00:33:13,110
it's coincidental that it is not are you

773
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:15,060
taking that decision if you've got the

774
00:33:17,990 --> 00:33:16,290
decision right against any other

775
00:33:19,250 --> 00:33:18,000
evidence do would that mean that for

776
00:33:21,530 --> 00:33:19,260
example you wouldn't have your kids

777
00:33:23,630 --> 00:33:21,540
vaccinated because of that I time case

778
00:33:25,820 --> 00:33:23,640
are very careful about any vaccines that

779
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:25,830
all would give them so what would what

780
00:33:31,070 --> 00:33:27,330
does that mean being very careful or

781
00:33:34,790 --> 00:33:31,080
what would you do and just just if I can

782
00:33:36,950 --> 00:33:34,800
digress so attorneys for the Bush

783
00:33:39,620 --> 00:33:36,960
administration asked a federal court on

784
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:39,630
Monday to order the documents on

785
00:33:45,380 --> 00:33:43,050
hundreds of cases of autism allegedly

786
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:45,390
caused by childhood vaccines to be kept

787
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:49,290
from the public Ryan which comes it back

788
00:33:52,610 --> 00:33:51,210
to it how would you judge back to the

789
00:33:54,890 --> 00:33:52,620
question how would you judge which

790
00:33:56,450 --> 00:33:54,900
vaccines you said you'd be very careful

791
00:33:59,150 --> 00:33:56,460
how does that work what would you do

792
00:34:03,680 --> 00:33:59,160
well you know I mean they can just keep

793
00:34:04,790 --> 00:34:03,690
inventing vaccines right so yeah but I'm

794
00:34:06,860 --> 00:34:04,800
getting down to how would you make the

795
00:34:08,720 --> 00:34:06,870
choice about which vaccines you'd give

796
00:34:11,210 --> 00:34:08,730
your children in which you wouldn't I

797
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:11,220
would be would be very over to my

798
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:14,130
homework and your homework would be

799
00:34:21,350 --> 00:34:17,090
better than medical authorities because

800
00:34:23,510 --> 00:34:21,360
because it would be my only but ready

801
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:23,520
yeah but Richard if I can also just as a

802
00:34:28,850 --> 00:34:26,490
Japanese had a very hard death rate in

803
00:34:30,790 --> 00:34:28,860
children and they withdrew all vaccines

804
00:34:33,620 --> 00:34:30,800
until they were two years of age and

805
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:33,630
then I have one I think the lowest death

806
00:34:39,710 --> 00:34:37,370
rate among entrance in the world okay

807
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:39,720
these are a lot of interesting stats and

808
00:34:43,820 --> 00:34:41,490
and they're reworkings of a whole lot of

809
00:34:45,710 --> 00:34:43,830
others I guess what causes my concern is

810
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:45,720
the assumption that you will research

811
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:47,850
better than any medical facility but

812
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:49,410
let's see what rachel has to say Rachel

813
00:34:53,300 --> 00:34:51,450
grams had a chat about what he feels and

814
00:34:55,910 --> 00:34:53,310
he's on yeah well let's touch on the

815
00:34:57,590 --> 00:34:55,920
Italian Court first of all and I think

816
00:34:59,120 --> 00:34:57,600
the difference between evidence you have

817
00:35:01,500 --> 00:34:59,130
in a court and evidence that you get

818
00:35:03,450 --> 00:35:01,510
scientifically is very very different

819
00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:03,460
so in terms of for example there's a

820
00:35:07,650 --> 00:35:06,250
vaccine court in the US where people can

821
00:35:09,780 --> 00:35:07,660
go if they believe their child has been

822
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:09,790
injured by a vaccine and the evidence

823
00:35:15,810 --> 00:35:12,130
required for people to get compensation

824
00:35:17,580 --> 00:35:15,820
is 50% and a feather which means just a

825
00:35:20,430 --> 00:35:17,590
little bit more than fifty percent

826
00:35:23,220 --> 00:35:20,440
that's designed to compensate parents

827
00:35:25,260 --> 00:35:23,230
but it's not scientifically decided so

828
00:35:28,650 --> 00:35:25,270
you might also recall recently that the

829
00:35:30,180 --> 00:35:28,660
italian court through seismologists into

830
00:35:32,580 --> 00:35:30,190
jail because they didn't predict an

831
00:35:34,710 --> 00:35:32,590
earthquake so you can look at the

832
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:34,720
scientific evidence to show that MMR

833
00:35:38,220 --> 00:35:36,130
doesn't cause autism which is

834
00:35:40,500 --> 00:35:38,230
overwhelming and we now have many many

835
00:35:43,350 --> 00:35:40,510
studies showing that or you can look at

836
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:43,360
the the decision of a court which is not

837
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:45,490
a scientific decision I know which side

838
00:35:49,620 --> 00:35:47,410
I'm going to go with the Japanese study

839
00:35:51,780 --> 00:35:49,630
who they removed everything and the

840
00:35:55,890 --> 00:35:51,790
fatalities went down well they certainly

841
00:35:57,990 --> 00:35:55,900
removed MMR for an in mid nineteen

842
00:35:59,970 --> 00:35:58,000
ninety-three they stopped using the

843
00:36:02,400 --> 00:35:59,980
measles mumps rubella rubella vaccine

844
00:36:04,010 --> 00:36:02,410
for a period of time because they had a

845
00:36:06,390 --> 00:36:04,020
lot of side effects with that particular

846
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:06,400
MMR vaccine which wasn't being used in

847
00:36:10,710 --> 00:36:07,810
the rest of the world by the way and

848
00:36:13,410 --> 00:36:10,720
interestingly if you thought that the

849
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:13,420
MMR was causing autism once the Japanese

850
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:15,010
removed it you would think that autism

851
00:36:20,700 --> 00:36:17,170
would drop dramatically or guess what

852
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:20,710
happened Richard MMR cases sorry autism

853
00:36:23,970 --> 00:36:22,570
cases continued to rise yeah you'll

854
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:23,980
notice the evidence he was giving then

855
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:26,050
said our fatalities increased he didn't

856
00:36:30,210 --> 00:36:28,210
mention that all to autism because as we

857
00:36:32,010 --> 00:36:30,220
know the autism increased it's

858
00:36:33,720 --> 00:36:32,020
interesting is not and I what I find

859
00:36:35,670 --> 00:36:33,730
fascinating is people still argue and go

860
00:36:38,130 --> 00:36:35,680
nod be very careful do my own research

861
00:36:41,940 --> 00:36:38,140
on the internet which is so much better

862
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:41,950
than say I don't know yeah medical

863
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:43,570
science during their own who've trained

864
00:36:47,790 --> 00:36:46,210
to do it I just I find that breathtaking

865
00:36:50,490 --> 00:36:47,800
that people can look you in the eye on

866
00:36:52,860 --> 00:36:50,500
go yeah I'd look it up myself and I'd do

867
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:52,870
it better it's fascinating Rachel thank

868
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:54,490
you so much I do appreciate Rachel

869
00:36:57,780 --> 00:36:56,050
Dunlop has been who you've been chatting

870
00:36:59,490 --> 00:36:57,790
to a postdoctoral fellow at the

871
00:37:01,640 --> 00:36:59,500
University of Technology in Sydney where

872
00:37:11,500 --> 00:37:01,650
she has for many years studied

873
00:37:11,510 --> 00:37:17,380
Rachel thank you so much a fresh air

874
00:37:17,390 --> 00:37:23,130
you

875
00:37:28,020 --> 00:37:25,890
hi I'm Finn and I'm Rebecca and where

876
00:37:29,790 --> 00:37:28,030
the skipper cons skipper Collins is an

877
00:37:31,470 --> 00:37:29,800
Irish podcast by the Dublin skeptics

878
00:37:33,030 --> 00:37:31,480
society it takes a conversational

879
00:37:34,290 --> 00:37:33,040
reverent look at science news and

880
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:34,300
skeptical topics from an Irish

881
00:37:41,519 --> 00:37:37,810
perspective you can find us at WWDC

882
00:37:41,529 --> 00:37:47,620
he's strong

883
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:52,280
here's my not spooky action at a

884
00:38:00,710 --> 00:37:58,730
well i'm here at skeptics in the pub a

885
00:38:01,849 --> 00:38:00,720
lot of people at the bar because dr. H

886
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:01,859
is not here there's a bit of extra room

887
00:38:05,540 --> 00:38:03,570
and there's a few new people who haven't

888
00:38:07,250 --> 00:38:05,550
been long before sir what's your name my

889
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:07,260
name is Luke Egan you here for the first

890
00:38:12,849 --> 00:38:10,050
time why is that Luke my friend invited

891
00:38:15,620 --> 00:38:12,859
me on Facebook so there's an example of

892
00:38:16,970 --> 00:38:15,630
new forms of media getting people

893
00:38:18,410 --> 00:38:16,980
involved I guess and how did they know

894
00:38:20,030 --> 00:38:18,420
to invite you it's just a blanket

895
00:38:21,890 --> 00:38:20,040
invitation or have you been skeptical

896
00:38:24,260 --> 00:38:21,900
doubt something in the past I've always

897
00:38:26,329 --> 00:38:24,270
been a skeptic for my whole adult life

898
00:38:29,690 --> 00:38:26,339
and I used to be a subscriber to the

899
00:38:32,420 --> 00:38:29,700
Australian skeptic magazine I should

900
00:38:34,430 --> 00:38:32,430
probably resubscribe well maybe the

901
00:38:36,950 --> 00:38:34,440
online version maybe yeah yeah maybe

902
00:38:39,079 --> 00:38:36,960
download version would be good so I

903
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:39,089
think he just knew that I would probably

904
00:38:43,190 --> 00:38:41,130
find it worthwhile and I have had a very

905
00:38:44,630 --> 00:38:43,200
good yeah we've got the question of the

906
00:38:46,700 --> 00:38:44,640
week coming up for you but first of all

907
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:46,710
what's your specialty area what's the

908
00:38:50,060 --> 00:38:48,690
bit of skepticism to get your goat

909
00:38:52,390 --> 00:38:50,070
what's the one you're interested in oh

910
00:38:56,650 --> 00:38:52,400
well I come from a psychology background

911
00:38:59,750 --> 00:38:56,660
so I'm pretty skeptical of various

912
00:39:02,720 --> 00:38:59,760
parapsychological claims you know and

913
00:39:05,240 --> 00:39:02,730
things in in the area of the mind and

914
00:39:07,700 --> 00:39:05,250
the brain and all the kinds of misguided

915
00:39:10,010 --> 00:39:07,710
ideas that go on in that area well one

916
00:39:12,620 --> 00:39:10,020
of them are just pulling out of my jeans

917
00:39:15,859 --> 00:39:12,630
is perhaps the alien abduction theory

918
00:39:17,089 --> 00:39:15,869
and people who have sleep wake sleeping

919
00:39:18,650 --> 00:39:17,099
and they have and they mentioned that

920
00:39:19,849 --> 00:39:18,660
they've injected by aliens when they're

921
00:39:21,849 --> 00:39:19,859
paralyzed would that be part of a

922
00:39:26,900 --> 00:39:21,859
psychological situation was that not

923
00:39:28,730 --> 00:39:26,910
definitely it is also a lot of in the

924
00:39:32,510 --> 00:39:28,740
medical field I work at a Medical

925
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:32,520
Institute and a lot of sleep because you

926
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:34,770
don't work at the ponds Institute do you

927
00:39:37,819 --> 00:39:36,210
because I've seen the ponds Institute on

928
00:39:39,829 --> 00:39:37,829
television well as women wearing the

929
00:39:42,260 --> 00:39:39,839
white lab coats doing the makeup stuff

930
00:39:45,950 --> 00:39:42,270
you're not a pond I don't know that our

931
00:39:47,240 --> 00:39:45,960
hands there okay so check yeah but if

932
00:39:50,090 --> 00:39:47,250
you ask the sleep physician they can

933
00:39:52,350 --> 00:39:50,100
tell you all about the

934
00:39:54,300 --> 00:39:52,360
forgive me by murdering the term but

935
00:39:55,950 --> 00:39:54,310
it's like hypnagogic or hypnagogic

936
00:39:57,570 --> 00:39:55,960
hallucinations or something oh that's

937
00:40:00,360 --> 00:39:57,580
pretty close to it sound like that yeah

938
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:00,370
and what's the psychological area that's

939
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:02,170
closest to your heart that intersects

940
00:40:09,390 --> 00:40:04,450
with the skepticism I suppose it would

941
00:40:14,250 --> 00:40:09,400
be trying to unravel the confusion

942
00:40:15,950 --> 00:40:14,260
around what role the what role

943
00:40:17,930 --> 00:40:15,960
neuroscience can play in our

944
00:40:20,490 --> 00:40:17,940
understanding of behavior and

945
00:40:23,460 --> 00:40:20,500
psychological states so how do you feel

946
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:23,470
when you see a TED talk about the

947
00:40:27,270 --> 00:40:25,690
consciousness someone like Rupert

948
00:40:29,550 --> 00:40:27,280
Sheldrake getting up there and saying

949
00:40:31,830 --> 00:40:29,560
that there's a creek cognition of images

950
00:40:33,630 --> 00:40:31,840
and that he's evidence shows that how do

951
00:40:35,700 --> 00:40:33,640
you feel about that oh yeah that reminds

952
00:40:37,350 --> 00:40:35,710
you of this debacle in one of the most

953
00:40:38,550 --> 00:40:37,360
prestigious psych journals the journal

954
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:38,560
of personality and social psychology

955
00:40:43,860 --> 00:40:41,370
published that awful paper by

956
00:40:47,010 --> 00:40:43,870
what's-his-name that it wasn't Rupert

957
00:40:48,270 --> 00:40:47,020
shelter was it wasn't him yes but I

958
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:48,280
think we know the one who talked yeah

959
00:40:54,330 --> 00:40:50,610
yeah and what was it purporting to prove

960
00:40:56,670 --> 00:40:54,340
precognition yeah and the thing is at no

961
00:40:59,160 --> 00:40:56,680
point in the paper did he posit a

962
00:41:04,580 --> 00:40:59,170
mechanism to explain the phenomenon and

963
00:41:07,530 --> 00:41:04,590
to me if you have a mechanism 'less idea

964
00:41:11,130 --> 00:41:07,540
then I would prefer chance as an

965
00:41:14,340 --> 00:41:11,140
explanation although as may be said to

966
00:41:16,350 --> 00:41:14,350
you by a non skeptic when Copernicus and

967
00:41:18,630 --> 00:41:16,360
Galileo originally making their

968
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:18,640
observations there was planets moving in

969
00:41:22,620 --> 00:41:20,650
odd ways and they hadn't originally

970
00:41:24,210 --> 00:41:22,630
figured out why they were doing it so

971
00:41:26,010 --> 00:41:24,220
they hadn't worked out a mechanism

972
00:41:27,690 --> 00:41:26,020
originally either

973
00:41:30,540 --> 00:41:27,700
they hadn't but they didn't posit a

974
00:41:31,590 --> 00:41:30,550
brand new theory so they kind of SAT

975
00:41:33,990 --> 00:41:31,600
there and said here are the observations

976
00:41:35,930 --> 00:41:34,000
whereas this paper put forth

977
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:35,940
observations and then said therefore

978
00:41:40,500 --> 00:41:38,530
precognition and that is pushing it way

979
00:41:44,090 --> 00:41:40,510
25 you if you had a mechanism to go with

980
00:41:45,990 --> 00:41:44,100
that hypothesis then okay might still be

981
00:41:48,270 --> 00:41:46,000
lunacy but at least you've got a

982
00:41:50,010 --> 00:41:48,280
mechanism that we can talk about without

983
00:41:51,870 --> 00:41:50,020
a mechanism i prefer chance as the best

984
00:41:53,250 --> 00:41:51,880
explanation and you've run it up for the

985
00:41:55,350 --> 00:41:53,260
first time you had skeptics at the pub

986
00:41:57,300 --> 00:41:55,360
at the coronation hotel and by the way

987
00:41:59,310 --> 00:41:57,310
the next one everybody is on thursday

988
00:42:01,110 --> 00:41:59,320
the sixth of June at the coronation

989
00:42:03,060 --> 00:42:01,120
hotel upstairs in Sydney come along

990
00:42:07,020 --> 00:42:03,070
we'll see you then would you recommend

991
00:42:08,460 --> 00:42:07,030
the time definitely yeah it was any what

992
00:42:11,100 --> 00:42:08,470
it's pretty well oh it gets wilder from

993
00:42:12,330 --> 00:42:11,110
here you have any wait wait till the

994
00:42:14,670 --> 00:42:12,340
strippers arrived they're skeptical

995
00:42:16,050 --> 00:42:14,680
strippers so they don't actually take

996
00:42:17,850 --> 00:42:16,060
off their clothes they just tell you

997
00:42:20,100 --> 00:42:17,860
that they might they're actually quantum

998
00:42:21,300 --> 00:42:20,110
strippers quantum strippers here so if I

999
00:42:22,740 --> 00:42:21,310
put them in a box and didn't observe

1000
00:42:25,310 --> 00:42:22,750
them would they be then they know they'd

1001
00:42:27,150 --> 00:42:25,320
be naked but you wouldn't see it okay

1002
00:42:29,190 --> 00:42:27,160
thanks Luke and have you got a website

1003
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:29,200
or a blog or anything I'm go to everyone

1004
00:42:33,150 --> 00:42:31,210
we can debate you I do it's not

1005
00:42:36,660 --> 00:42:33,160
skeptically oriented but it's called

1006
00:42:39,060 --> 00:42:36,670
pseudo photos of cats haha it's a bit

1007
00:42:40,710 --> 00:42:39,070
more a little bit of hive rather than

1008
00:42:44,730 --> 00:42:40,720
that i have a blog called sydney

1009
00:42:47,100 --> 00:42:44,740
sidewinder wordpress com i talk about

1010
00:42:48,900 --> 00:42:47,110
how great Sydney years and things to do

1011
00:42:51,450 --> 00:42:48,910
around here so when you're not when

1012
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:51,460
you're not a skeptical meaning there are

1013
00:42:55,140 --> 00:42:52,690
other things you can get up to as well

1014
00:42:57,180 --> 00:42:55,150
and because the question of the night it

1015
00:43:00,630 --> 00:42:57,190
should skeptic still be worried about

1016
00:43:03,150 --> 00:43:00,640
the issue of UFOs me I think that the

1017
00:43:04,500 --> 00:43:03,160
the reveal is just around the corner I'm

1018
00:43:06,540 --> 00:43:04,510
sure they're going to be coming up and

1019
00:43:08,190 --> 00:43:06,550
say yes it was all real all the time

1020
00:43:09,870 --> 00:43:08,200
it's been misinformation that's how I

1021
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:09,880
feel how do you feel should skeptics be

1022
00:43:16,230 --> 00:43:13,090
still bothered with UFOs I think if we

1023
00:43:18,090 --> 00:43:16,240
have time that's fine but with things

1024
00:43:20,100 --> 00:43:18,100
like the anti-vaccine which is like

1025
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:20,110
those guys have blood on their hands as

1026
00:43:24,390 --> 00:43:21,970
far as I'm concerned so if we can

1027
00:43:25,890 --> 00:43:24,400
prevent people from dying needlessly and

1028
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:25,900
then still have time left over to debate

1029
00:43:29,740 --> 00:43:27,850
UFOs that's fine but if not let's

1030
00:43:32,230 --> 00:43:29,750
prioritize the real

1031
00:43:33,730 --> 00:43:32,240
life or death stuff I couldn't agree

1032
00:43:35,380 --> 00:43:33,740
more with you and that's why I'm usually

1033
00:43:36,220 --> 00:43:35,390
very silent on that issue because they

1034
00:43:38,350 --> 00:43:36,230
need people know what they're talking

1035
00:43:41,740 --> 00:43:38,360
about like dr. reaching people like me

1036
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:41,750
coming out doing you can only damage the

1037
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:44,450
cause I said that's a bit that's fair

1038
00:43:49,720 --> 00:43:47,050
enough yeah yeah I'll go home and I'll

1039
00:43:51,220 --> 00:43:49,730
give dr. ratio love support while she's

1040
00:43:55,170 --> 00:43:51,230
doing the blogging but I'll be watching

1041
00:43:58,210 --> 00:43:55,180
ancient aliens sounds good to me too

1042
00:43:59,920 --> 00:43:58,220
what what 70-plus people here are

1043
00:44:01,390 --> 00:43:59,930
upstairs at the coronation hotel of

1044
00:44:02,770 --> 00:44:01,400
course as I said the next one is on the

1045
00:44:04,810 --> 00:44:02,780
sixth of June come along and you can

1046
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:04,820
meet people like Jessica's una hello

1047
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:07,010
hello in DD how are you pretty good the

1048
00:44:09,970 --> 00:44:08,330
name might be singer but she's never

1049
00:44:12,130 --> 00:44:09,980
been on the voice or australia's Got

1050
00:44:15,190 --> 00:44:12,140
Talent although apparently you do in

1051
00:44:17,860 --> 00:44:15,200
certain areas oh well I'll just let my

1052
00:44:21,010 --> 00:44:17,870
reputation precede me in that regard tap

1053
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:21,020
dancing now richard is our now richard

1054
00:44:23,350 --> 00:44:22,010
has sent the question for the night

1055
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:23,360
should the skeptics still be worried

1056
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:25,130
about UFOs and I was just talking to a

1057
00:44:28,300 --> 00:44:26,810
first-time skeptic here and he thought

1058
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:28,310
that we've got bigger concerns like

1059
00:44:31,330 --> 00:44:30,050
vaccinations but do you feel it's

1060
00:44:35,950 --> 00:44:31,340
something a sceptic should be concerned

1061
00:44:39,850 --> 00:44:35,960
with at all oh well that's a hard one on

1062
00:44:41,380 --> 00:44:39,860
we we have a skeptic one of us one of

1063
00:44:43,690 --> 00:44:41,390
our people down in Melbourne Steve

1064
00:44:45,910 --> 00:44:43,700
Roberts has done a lot of work on the on

1065
00:44:49,270 --> 00:44:45,920
the UFO phenomena or the you know the

1066
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:49,280
belief in in alien abductions and he

1067
00:44:55,060 --> 00:44:51,410
said he did a very interesting talk

1068
00:44:58,090 --> 00:44:55,070
about how the how the reports have

1069
00:45:00,790 --> 00:44:58,100
so-called at that abductions spike every

1070
00:45:04,900 --> 00:45:00,800
time there's an alien movie or a UFO

1071
00:45:06,610 --> 00:45:04,910
movie and it's it's some so it's it's I

1072
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:06,620
think it's interesting from that point

1073
00:45:11,590 --> 00:45:09,170
of view I think it's it's a phenomenon

1074
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:11,600
that we need to keep tabs on

1075
00:45:17,740 --> 00:45:14,930
it's also something that people do get

1076
00:45:19,810 --> 00:45:17,750
very distressed about so if we can help

1077
00:45:22,450 --> 00:45:19,820
them and reassure them that's good I

1078
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:22,460
remember our former executive officer

1079
00:45:27,010 --> 00:45:24,530
Barry Williams he would always get phone

1080
00:45:28,450 --> 00:45:27,020
calls from very distressed people often

1081
00:45:30,970 --> 00:45:28,460
in the middle of the night when channel

1082
00:45:33,580 --> 00:45:30,980
7 had shown some bloody documentary or

1083
00:45:36,670 --> 00:45:33,590
other and they just wanted reassurance

1084
00:45:40,290 --> 00:45:36,680
and and if we can help and perhaps yo

1085
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:40,300
just just give a rational explanation

1086
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:42,770
yeah I think there's still a role for

1087
00:45:48,070 --> 00:45:45,530
that ok if anyone would like to go back

1088
00:45:50,830 --> 00:45:48,080
if they can I'll recap for them I spoke

1089
00:45:53,140 --> 00:45:50,840
to Steve novella about this issue at tam

1090
00:45:55,210 --> 00:45:53,150
Australia when he was out and and I said

1091
00:45:57,520 --> 00:45:55,220
there's a chance UFOs are real and he

1092
00:45:58,960 --> 00:45:57,530
said well it's so statistically smaller

1093
00:46:01,810 --> 00:45:58,970
they might be real but it's probably not

1094
00:46:04,030 --> 00:46:01,820
worth bothering to look and I Reese and

1095
00:46:05,770 --> 00:46:04,040
also I chatted with an Australian

1096
00:46:07,690 --> 00:46:05,780
researcher had gone around the world

1097
00:46:10,450 --> 00:46:07,700
following this at various spots around

1098
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:10,460
the world of a hotspot so to me that

1099
00:46:14,020 --> 00:46:11,930
there is something going on that's worth

1100
00:46:16,450 --> 00:46:14,030
studying even if it's just psychological

1101
00:46:18,850 --> 00:46:16,460
or its cultural yes definitely from a

1102
00:46:21,940 --> 00:46:18,860
psychological cultural point of view but

1103
00:46:26,050 --> 00:46:21,950
in terms of you know do they come and

1104
00:46:29,380 --> 00:46:26,060
visit us I don't think so yeah so so so

1105
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:29,390
yeah chasing going to these UFO

1106
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:32,570
conventions and chasing watching

1107
00:46:37,720 --> 00:46:35,810
watching very grainy and and bad

1108
00:46:40,030 --> 00:46:37,730
photographs of nothing in particular

1109
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:40,040
that's a bit of a waste of time but

1110
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:42,650
little bit yeah I'm a big fan of out of

1111
00:46:47,290 --> 00:46:44,570
the blue the Fox films have been made

1112
00:46:49,420 --> 00:46:47,300
and I know what I saw now I know what I

1113
00:46:52,780 --> 00:46:49,430
saw could be actually retitled argument

1114
00:46:54,370 --> 00:46:52,790
from Authority because it's a and by the

1115
00:46:58,360 --> 00:46:54,380
way we just had a lecture here by Tim

1116
00:47:00,010 --> 00:46:58,370
mendham who said don't use that don't

1117
00:47:01,450 --> 00:47:00,020
bring up logical fallacies when you're

1118
00:47:03,370 --> 00:47:01,460
having a conversation with the media or

1119
00:47:05,319 --> 00:47:03,380
with people because people go look

1120
00:47:07,660 --> 00:47:05,329
pointy-headed don't they straight away

1121
00:47:10,809 --> 00:47:07,670
absolutely yeah oh yeah oh yeah and

1122
00:47:12,729 --> 00:47:10,819
basically it's a it's lawyers its pilots

1123
00:47:14,949 --> 00:47:12,739
it's politicians its various people it's

1124
00:47:16,660 --> 00:47:14,959
policemen Air Force people that you

1125
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:16,670
would think would know what they see in

1126
00:47:19,779 --> 00:47:18,410
the sky that have seen unusual things

1127
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:19,789
and that's what I know what I saw is

1128
00:47:24,549 --> 00:47:21,650
based around now do you think there's

1129
00:47:27,969 --> 00:47:24,559
any argument there ah well I'm a lawyer

1130
00:47:32,709 --> 00:47:27,979
and you know any anybody and you also

1131
00:47:34,180 --> 00:47:32,719
play one on TV well I wouldn't mind if I

1132
00:47:36,130 --> 00:47:34,190
wouldn't mind collecting a salary for

1133
00:47:38,140 --> 00:47:36,140
doing so open that would be good she SAT

1134
00:47:40,180 --> 00:47:38,150
just behind Ally McBeal if you if you

1135
00:47:42,940 --> 00:47:40,190
freeze the frame you can see her going

1136
00:47:47,049 --> 00:47:42,950
into the unisex toilet yep absolutely so

1137
00:47:51,849 --> 00:47:47,059
yeah so as a lawyer the the belief is

1138
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:51,859
that firsthand evidence is best evidence

1139
00:47:58,569 --> 00:47:55,729
and firsthand testimony and what you see

1140
00:48:01,599 --> 00:47:58,579
is the best evidence but I think as

1141
00:48:04,359 --> 00:48:01,609
skeptics we all know how our brain can

1142
00:48:08,410 --> 00:48:04,369
fool us how our perceptions could fool

1143
00:48:11,319 --> 00:48:08,420
us and how that can be that can be very

1144
00:48:13,569 --> 00:48:11,329
misleading as a lawyer do you think that

1145
00:48:16,509 --> 00:48:13,579
perhaps William Shatner's performances

1146
00:48:19,059 --> 00:48:16,519
Danny crane is the greatest portrayal of

1147
00:48:22,660 --> 00:48:19,069
a lawyer on screen or on television ever

1148
00:48:26,019 --> 00:48:22,670
in the history of the world um I'm sorry

1149
00:48:27,939 --> 00:48:26,029
to admit I've never seen it well I know

1150
00:48:30,039 --> 00:48:27,949
isn't that if we get a lawyer who's

1151
00:48:31,839 --> 00:48:30,049
never watched Boston well that's it then

1152
00:48:33,549 --> 00:48:31,849
look I'm gonna go talk to someone else I

1153
00:48:36,099 --> 00:48:33,559
don't watch legal programs I'm sorry the

1154
00:48:38,559 --> 00:48:36,109
only the only 1i watches Rumple I love

1155
00:48:40,359 --> 00:48:38,569
rumble stop sniggering no no no look

1156
00:48:42,849 --> 00:48:40,369
look it's just as interesting as the

1157
00:48:46,089 --> 00:48:42,859
Duchess of duke street oh I remember

1158
00:48:47,949 --> 00:48:46,099
that oh my god I've been around some

1159
00:48:50,019 --> 00:48:47,959
more people thank you for your time no

1160
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:50,029
worries take care may not Richard

1161
00:48:56,019 --> 00:48:52,249
Saunders is back from overseas he's been

1162
00:48:57,910 --> 00:48:56,029
banned from Czechoslovakia Norway there

1163
00:49:00,069 --> 00:48:57,920
was that incident in Trondheim that the

1164
00:49:01,989 --> 00:49:00,079
police are still looking for him for he

1165
00:49:04,509 --> 00:49:01,999
was seen sitting in a park talking to a

1166
00:49:05,979 --> 00:49:04,519
microphone for a while there and we're

1167
00:49:07,630 --> 00:49:05,989
actually in our special studio which is

1168
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:07,640
the corridor see you later people thanks

1169
00:49:11,529 --> 00:49:09,890
for coming we had some lovely people

1170
00:49:14,019 --> 00:49:11,539
there and Richard Saunders how are you

1171
00:49:15,130 --> 00:49:14,029
jet-lagged may not look at now you had a

1172
00:49:16,870 --> 00:49:15,140
great time you've been around the world

1173
00:49:17,950 --> 00:49:16,880
being skeptical and I've been asking

1174
00:49:20,079 --> 00:49:17,960
people about you

1175
00:49:22,180 --> 00:49:20,089
what's your feeling about whether UFO

1176
00:49:24,220 --> 00:49:22,190
should still be tackled by the skeptical

1177
00:49:26,079 --> 00:49:24,230
movement or not oh I think it's they

1178
00:49:27,820 --> 00:49:26,089
should because it's a good way to for

1179
00:49:30,550 --> 00:49:27,830
young skeptics to cut their teeth you

1180
00:49:34,210 --> 00:49:30,560
know look at the investigations and how

1181
00:49:37,990 --> 00:49:34,220
to talk to people what what witness

1182
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:38,000
accounts mean and all the rest of it but

1183
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:39,890
it's something has been studied for so

1184
00:49:44,829 --> 00:49:42,650
many years now and it's still the the

1185
00:49:47,260 --> 00:49:44,839
results are pretty pretty crummy this

1186
00:49:49,359 --> 00:49:47,270
Carl Sagan would say but it's still it's

1187
00:49:52,060 --> 00:49:49,369
a worthwhile endeavor especially when

1188
00:49:54,370 --> 00:49:52,070
you're learning skepticism now I hark

1189
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:54,380
back to the dirty disbelievers show that

1190
00:49:57,970 --> 00:49:56,210
I did with you dr. H E and Jamie

1191
00:49:59,560 --> 00:49:57,980
Leonardo and as you know Jamie Leonardo

1192
00:50:01,750 --> 00:49:59,570
is is very interested in investigating

1193
00:50:03,579 --> 00:50:01,760
this area and he brought up something

1194
00:50:06,250 --> 00:50:03,589
which I haven't thought about in that

1195
00:50:07,930 --> 00:50:06,260
most skeptics would automatically think

1196
00:50:09,970 --> 00:50:07,940
that we're looking at an alien life form

1197
00:50:11,589 --> 00:50:09,980
and it could be multi-dimensional or

1198
00:50:13,150 --> 00:50:11,599
something like that which I tend to go

1199
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:13,160
with their of course there's no proof

1200
00:50:18,370 --> 00:50:15,770
for that hypothesis if you could call it

1201
00:50:20,079 --> 00:50:18,380
that do you think that they're me

1202
00:50:21,370 --> 00:50:20,089
thinking like that I need to put my head

1203
00:50:23,230 --> 00:50:21,380
in the bucket of water or not and you

1204
00:50:24,609 --> 00:50:23,240
Richard's got that smile on his face it

1205
00:50:26,980 --> 00:50:24,619
goes yeah we need to put my dad's head

1206
00:50:28,710 --> 00:50:26,990
in the bucket of water yeah well I know

1207
00:50:31,270 --> 00:50:28,720
that's perfectly you a perfectly good

1208
00:50:33,670 --> 00:50:31,280
line of thinking may not know it really

1209
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:33,680
is I mean why would it have to be aliens

1210
00:50:37,750 --> 00:50:35,690
but why not think of is it a

1211
00:50:40,690 --> 00:50:37,760
multi-dimensional creature from Earth is

1212
00:50:42,430 --> 00:50:40,700
that someone from the future isn't also

1213
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:42,440
I mean what you know I also think that

1214
00:50:46,720 --> 00:50:44,210
it's a phenomenon worth investigating

1215
00:50:49,060 --> 00:50:46,730
because if it isn't what it what if it's

1216
00:50:50,980 --> 00:50:49,070
a psychological or a cultural thing and

1217
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:50,990
as I've mentioned my conversation with

1218
00:50:54,910 --> 00:50:53,570
steve novella at the TAM Australia he

1219
00:50:56,349 --> 00:50:54,920
thought it's so small it's not worth

1220
00:50:58,839 --> 00:50:56,359
investigating because of a percentage

1221
00:51:01,329 --> 00:50:58,849
chance of being realest so mean small

1222
00:51:03,490 --> 00:51:01,339
but I yeah I don't but I think that if

1223
00:51:05,710 --> 00:51:03,500
it is a cultural or psychological that

1224
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:05,720
activity or event that's worth

1225
00:51:10,630 --> 00:51:08,690
investigating yes it is but not not so

1226
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:10,640
much from what we might call a classical

1227
00:51:15,310 --> 00:51:13,010
skeptical point of view and I look at

1228
00:51:16,870 --> 00:51:15,320
Clark classical skepticism as dating

1229
00:51:18,700 --> 00:51:16,880
back from the 70s when it's all about

1230
00:51:20,410 --> 00:51:18,710
psychics and monsters and UFOs and

1231
00:51:21,820 --> 00:51:20,420
Bigfoot and all that sort of stuff I

1232
00:51:23,859 --> 00:51:21,830
love those sort of things in together

1233
00:51:25,750 --> 00:51:23,869
and obviously you'd be concerned that it

1234
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:25,760
might distract the movement from other

1235
00:51:29,349 --> 00:51:27,170
ones you consider to be more

1236
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:29,359
life-threatening such as a vaccination

1237
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:31,490
and anti medical practices

1238
00:51:36,220 --> 00:51:35,210
well I guess there is an argument for

1239
00:51:38,410 --> 00:51:36,230
that but you know there are a lot of

1240
00:51:40,570 --> 00:51:38,420
skeptics especially a lot of young keen

1241
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:40,580
skeptics who want to investigate these

1242
00:51:44,350 --> 00:51:42,170
things and I say good luck to them you

1243
00:51:46,720 --> 00:51:44,360
know fine go for it i I've got no

1244
00:51:48,670 --> 00:51:46,730
problem with that and have you got a

1245
00:51:52,060 --> 00:51:48,680
problem with me enjoying the entire

1246
00:51:55,140 --> 00:51:52,070
ancient alien series ah haven't you

1247
00:51:57,700 --> 00:51:55,150
listened to solar flare oh look and

1248
00:51:59,770 --> 00:51:57,710
sidebar people solar flare has come out

1249
00:52:01,420 --> 00:51:59,780
and I've been flooded with well actually

1250
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:01,430
no emails but Richard might have got a

1251
00:52:05,170 --> 00:52:03,410
couple solar flare it's like commander

1252
00:52:07,420 --> 00:52:05,180
Saunders has done a fantastic job

1253
00:52:09,790 --> 00:52:07,430
Captain Saunders I was promoted you know

1254
00:52:11,620 --> 00:52:09,800
I did get a message about solar flare

1255
00:52:13,780 --> 00:52:11,630
and it said that you stole the show oh

1256
00:52:15,970 --> 00:52:13,790
here's three new people going party

1257
00:52:17,500 --> 00:52:15,980
later this is I'm talking to Richard

1258
00:52:18,700 --> 00:52:17,510
Saunders cuz he's an alcoholic you can't

1259
00:52:22,270 --> 00:52:18,710
chat to him later you got to get him

1260
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:22,280
early still upright yes no they said

1261
00:52:25,510 --> 00:52:23,690
that you stole the show so there you go

1262
00:52:27,430 --> 00:52:25,520
well yeah I did and that's why it wasn't

1263
00:52:30,130 --> 00:52:27,440
out for a while I may not give it back

1264
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:30,140
look it was a lot of fun to do and a lot

1265
00:52:33,700 --> 00:52:32,450
of work went into that people and there

1266
00:52:35,500 --> 00:52:33,710
might be another but believing me

1267
00:52:37,630 --> 00:52:35,510
Richard did a lot of work on that the

1268
00:52:39,780 --> 00:52:37,640
production and Stefan and everybody was

1269
00:52:43,060 --> 00:52:39,790
involved in it I'm a bit of a fan of

1270
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:43,070
Elsa st you men will hello i enjoy

1271
00:52:48,130 --> 00:52:45,410
hearing novella he was just a novella

1272
00:52:49,630 --> 00:52:48,140
like he had that dr. evil touch about

1273
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:49,640
him he did he hammed it up a bit which

1274
00:52:54,220 --> 00:52:51,170
was great and there's a lot of work

1275
00:52:55,570 --> 00:52:54,230
there may be another 180 a baby and look

1276
00:52:57,310 --> 00:52:55,580
before we finishes or anything we can

1277
00:52:58,930 --> 00:52:57,320
point to people are we're back here at

1278
00:53:00,970 --> 00:52:58,940
the coronation until I mentioned a few

1279
00:53:02,980 --> 00:53:00,980
time on the Thursday the sixth of June

1280
00:53:05,170 --> 00:53:02,990
it's upstairs at the coronation hotel in

1281
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:05,180
Sydney it's the sixth of June is it no

1282
00:53:08,470 --> 00:53:06,770
that's the next one that's what I'm

1283
00:53:10,780 --> 00:53:08,480
saying it's the next one Sam I'm getting

1284
00:53:12,550 --> 00:53:10,790
people earlier me folks yes that's yes

1285
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:12,560
we'll see you there okay spoon bending

1286
00:53:18,550 --> 00:53:14,810
lessons okay we're here with our

1287
00:53:20,290 --> 00:53:18,560
Aeronautics correspondent usually if if

1288
00:53:22,690 --> 00:53:20,300
you've seen any show that involves the

1289
00:53:25,240 --> 00:53:22,700
phrase black box so that's not an adult

1290
00:53:26,740 --> 00:53:25,250
movie or a video clip this guy's

1291
00:53:29,530 --> 00:53:26,750
probably seen it

1292
00:53:32,230 --> 00:53:29,540
I tend to read the accident reports more

1293
00:53:34,210 --> 00:53:32,240
than the then you mean they don't you

1294
00:53:35,620 --> 00:53:34,220
like the dramatizations know you know

1295
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:35,630
the mother with the child and the guy

1296
00:53:39,010 --> 00:53:37,490
who helped invent the IBM computer and

1297
00:53:42,100 --> 00:53:39,020
then the this and that so okay i know i

1298
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:42,110
know enough of them thinking that what

1299
00:53:45,700 --> 00:53:43,850
is your name sir much your website so we

1300
00:53:50,020 --> 00:53:45,710
can complain to you later my name is

1301
00:53:51,790 --> 00:53:50,030
Robin cleared and my website ok good

1302
00:53:54,670 --> 00:53:51,800
Lee's name goodness knows what will come

1303
00:53:56,110 --> 00:53:54,680
up but I I appear on Google a lot do you

1304
00:53:58,570 --> 00:53:56,120
think skeptics should still concern

1305
00:54:01,240 --> 00:53:58,580
themselves with the phenomena of UFOs or

1306
00:54:03,490 --> 00:54:01,250
is that you know so 10 years ago

1307
00:54:05,050 --> 00:54:03,500
personally I think that it it's the

1308
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:05,060
major thing on my mind because I haven't

1309
00:54:09,250 --> 00:54:07,130
got the brainpower to work with the

1310
00:54:12,340 --> 00:54:09,260
vaccination issue but what do you think

1311
00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:12,350
about the rest of us I think come I mean

1312
00:54:16,030 --> 00:54:14,330
I always remember I suppose my

1313
00:54:17,650 --> 00:54:16,040
skepticism I'm something echoing

1314
00:54:19,990 --> 00:54:17,660
something that that rupee said on

1315
00:54:22,660 --> 00:54:20,000
skeptic ality once i think but a lot of

1316
00:54:24,730 --> 00:54:22,670
people get into skepticism from the

1317
00:54:26,740 --> 00:54:24,740
wonder of the mystery i remember all the

1318
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:26,750
us-born kids books when I was in the

1319
00:54:30,730 --> 00:54:28,850
inner 70s use one book of UFOs which i

1320
00:54:32,530 --> 00:54:30,740
still have and the and all these things

1321
00:54:34,660 --> 00:54:32,540
and I think part and at the same time I

1322
00:54:37,260 --> 00:54:34,670
started becoming skeptical about things

1323
00:54:40,090 --> 00:54:37,270
but that was what the excitement was

1324
00:54:41,530 --> 00:54:40,100
Michael Shermer has said that the

1325
00:54:43,180 --> 00:54:41,540
paranormal is a gateway drug to

1326
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:43,190
skepticism do you think that's true I

1327
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:45,050
really thought in my I can only speak

1328
00:54:49,570 --> 00:54:47,330
for myself but I think so and I Mikkel

1329
00:54:51,580 --> 00:54:49,580
heard other people say that you know

1330
00:54:53,530 --> 00:54:51,590
people like sweepy say similar things I

1331
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:53,540
think and it's also Benjamin Radford i

1332
00:54:57,790 --> 00:54:55,330
think was saying as Benjamin Radford

1333
00:54:59,170 --> 00:54:57,800
well I mean who told Matt what monster

1334
00:55:00,520 --> 00:54:59,180
talk and something that everyone loves

1335
00:55:02,530 --> 00:55:00,530
that fantastic and they're taking a

1336
00:55:04,090 --> 00:55:02,540
break for a couple of months are they

1337
00:55:05,140 --> 00:55:04,100
are yeah they're taking a break through

1338
00:55:06,370 --> 00:55:05,150
little journal saying that they got a

1339
00:55:08,110 --> 00:55:06,380
few things on I was going to interview

1340
00:55:09,340 --> 00:55:08,120
him do a thing on the show I think

1341
00:55:12,670 --> 00:55:09,350
they're actually taking a break so they

1342
00:55:14,650 --> 00:55:12,680
can avoid me interviewing them ah no

1343
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:14,660
never never never oh there's something

1344
00:55:18,310 --> 00:55:16,490
there Benjamin Redford in a PhD or

1345
00:55:19,510 --> 00:55:18,320
something that's just like smoke screen

1346
00:55:21,370 --> 00:55:19,520
yeah you're definitely definitely he's

1347
00:55:24,460 --> 00:55:21,380
actually gone up to the mothership for a

1348
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:24,470
short time yeah so what would you what

1349
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:27,170
do you think when qualified pilots as in

1350
00:55:31,270 --> 00:55:29,210
the movie that I've I know what I saw

1351
00:55:32,410 --> 00:55:31,280
which is also known as an argument from

1352
00:55:34,390 --> 00:55:32,420
Authority

1353
00:55:36,340 --> 00:55:34,400
what do you think of that sort of thing

1354
00:55:38,050 --> 00:55:36,350
when qualified pilots see something in

1355
00:55:39,940 --> 00:55:38,060
the sky that seems to be flying around

1356
00:55:40,990 --> 00:55:39,950
quite close to them like the incident

1357
00:55:43,240 --> 00:55:41,000
that happened over the English Channel

1358
00:55:45,490 --> 00:55:43,250
well I actually remember one of the

1359
00:55:46,990 --> 00:55:45,500
first I was so into this when I was

1360
00:55:48,700 --> 00:55:47,000
young I add up there's a great book

1361
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:48,710
called alien not over the antipathy

1362
00:55:51,730 --> 00:55:50,690
aliens over the Antipodes which went

1363
00:55:53,770 --> 00:55:51,740
into detail about frederick valentich

1364
00:55:55,390 --> 00:55:53,780
and so i was very excited when the

1365
00:55:57,130 --> 00:55:55,400
skeptic actually covered that story a

1366
00:55:58,930 --> 00:55:57,140
few years ago cuz i fascinate about that

1367
00:56:01,060 --> 00:55:58,940
when i was he was circling a large

1368
00:56:02,050 --> 00:56:01,070
object above him and the last thing we

1369
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:02,060
heard from him with some sort of

1370
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:04,490
metallic Clank as if he'd ran into it or

1371
00:56:09,850 --> 00:56:07,370
something I've yes well I think I I mean

1372
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:09,860
yeah it fascinated me and I can remember

1373
00:56:12,610 --> 00:56:11,330
sort of squinting at airplanes

1374
00:56:14,140 --> 00:56:12,620
approaching Sydney Airport trying to

1375
00:56:16,150 --> 00:56:14,150
pretend that there were UFOs and making

1376
00:56:18,850 --> 00:56:16,160
paper models of them and you know this

1377
00:56:21,850 --> 00:56:18,860
is a UFO that I saw you know in inverted

1378
00:56:24,430 --> 00:56:21,860
commas so I can remember I do think it's

1379
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:24,440
a gateway to skepticism because around

1380
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:25,610
the same time I started reading I

1381
00:56:32,470 --> 00:56:29,210
remember the the book that was done by

1382
00:56:33,820 --> 00:56:32,480
Randy and and Dick Smith on the water

1383
00:56:35,230 --> 00:56:33,830
divining in Australia and I remember

1384
00:56:37,150 --> 00:56:35,240
that was in the school library so I'm

1385
00:56:38,530 --> 00:56:37,160
very thankful to the librarian at that

1386
00:56:40,150 --> 00:56:38,540
school for having that in the library

1387
00:56:42,070 --> 00:56:40,160
because that was a sort of a very early

1388
00:56:45,070 --> 00:56:42,080
start and you have a hell of an overdue

1389
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:45,080
fee on that too I did give that one back

1390
00:56:50,530 --> 00:56:49,010
oh and of course I'm over near the

1391
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:50,540
speaker let's just get down to some of

1392
00:56:58,340 --> 00:56:56,030
sure it's great but it's no Belinda

1393
00:57:00,590 --> 00:56:58,350
Carlisle people is it really who we got

1394
00:57:02,180 --> 00:57:00,600
here I may not I'm Nick I Nick pleased

1395
00:57:04,190 --> 00:57:02,190
to see you again tell us do you think

1396
00:57:05,930 --> 00:57:04,200
skeptic should still be interested in

1397
00:57:08,570 --> 00:57:05,940
the UFO phenomenon or it's something

1398
00:57:11,210 --> 00:57:08,580
that's headed today well UFOs there's

1399
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:11,220
been the ancient alien astronaut

1400
00:57:15,980 --> 00:57:14,370
proponents oh yeah I love it when they

1401
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:15,990
cut to Erich von Daniken and he's there

1402
00:57:20,660 --> 00:57:17,490
with the glass of scotch and the gold

1403
00:57:23,780 --> 00:57:20,670
ring that's fantastic i'm a Daniken fan

1404
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:23,790
well you've got to have some someone to

1405
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:27,210
criticize some target to pick on hmm you

1406
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:29,490
know the crazy theories that every

1407
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:31,290
single pyramid is pointing up towards

1408
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:34,650
ancient UFOs and in other words your

1409
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:37,410
favorite area of skepticism normally are

1410
00:57:40,970 --> 00:57:38,970
probably medicine I think that's one of

1411
00:57:42,110 --> 00:57:40,980
the big areas where people you know

1412
00:57:44,750 --> 00:57:42,120
right now there's this issue with a

1413
00:57:46,340 --> 00:57:44,760
measles outbreak and there's just it's

1414
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:46,350
been going on for years that there's

1415
00:57:51,380 --> 00:57:48,570
been so much misinformation that we're

1416
00:57:53,810 --> 00:57:51,390
starting to finally see the real cause

1417
00:57:55,610 --> 00:57:53,820
have wanted the ultimate result with

1418
00:57:58,250 --> 00:57:55,620
real disease going around it's such a

1419
00:58:00,800 --> 00:57:58,260
big issue right now and also who we got

1420
00:58:03,260 --> 00:58:00,810
here Chris hello Chris are you a long

1421
00:58:04,130 --> 00:58:03,270
time skeptic medium time skeptical you

1422
00:58:07,010 --> 00:58:04,140
the guy who started the organization

1423
00:58:10,460 --> 00:58:07,020
with Dick Smith I've been a skeptic for

1424
00:58:13,430 --> 00:58:10,470
60-odd years hmm but I've actually been

1425
00:58:15,500 --> 00:58:13,440
associated with if you like the movement

1426
00:58:19,060 --> 00:58:15,510
for a few years coming to skeptic in the

1427
00:58:22,010 --> 00:58:19,070
pub at my entree was listening to

1428
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:22,020
Richard and dr. ratio and skeptics ohm

1429
00:58:26,090 --> 00:58:24,810
and very early on in the piece what are

1430
00:58:27,710 --> 00:58:26,100
you making the show there's been three

1431
00:58:29,060 --> 00:58:27,720
hundred episodes is there something

1432
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:29,070
that's stuck out in your mind or you gon

1433
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:30,570
are these guys should lift their game

1434
00:58:39,530 --> 00:58:34,010
the NAS girls they used to be

1435
00:58:42,290 --> 00:58:39,540
no I to the line skeptic there are a

1436
00:58:44,750 --> 00:58:42,300
light in the darkness and sin to know

1437
00:58:46,490 --> 00:58:44,760
that there's people like you as we saw

1438
00:58:49,430 --> 00:58:46,500
when we had ten Australia or the

1439
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:49,440
conference down in Melbourne exactly

1440
00:58:54,319 --> 00:58:51,210
it's nice to know and that's why I come

1441
00:58:57,319 --> 00:58:54,329
to skeptics in the pub one of the big

1442
00:59:00,020 --> 00:58:57,329
issues if you look at one of the great

1443
00:59:02,089 --> 00:59:00,030
if you like strengths and values of

1444
00:59:06,290 --> 00:59:02,099
religion is is a sense of community

1445
00:59:08,390 --> 00:59:06,300
fellowship this is my my wife goes to

1446
00:59:11,030 --> 00:59:08,400
church every week I've come to skeptics

1447
00:59:12,349 --> 00:59:11,040
in the pub every month and now you've

1448
00:59:15,500 --> 00:59:12,359
got me in addition we don't have to

1449
00:59:18,140 --> 00:59:15,510
dress up as much here either really well

1450
00:59:21,349 --> 00:59:18,150
being Catholic then undress out I have

1451
00:59:24,020 --> 00:59:21,359
fantastic hats and my wife doesn't wear

1452
00:59:25,910 --> 00:59:24,030
one I hope does the Pope's got the

1453
00:59:27,049 --> 00:59:25,920
benefit like like you know I mean you

1454
00:59:28,490 --> 00:59:27,059
know when he flies on the back of

1455
00:59:32,809 --> 00:59:28,500
powdered toast man that's some of the

1456
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:32,819
best bits of ren and stimpy yeah I'd

1457
00:59:38,510 --> 00:59:35,730
love the popemobile back man would love

1458
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:38,520
the popemobile look Adam West the true

1459
00:59:42,799 --> 00:59:40,410
Batman as a believer Adam West is the

1460
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:42,809
one and only true Batman and the UFO

1461
00:59:45,770 --> 00:59:44,130
issue how do you feel about it because

1462
00:59:49,190 --> 00:59:45,780
early on in skepticism that would have

1463
00:59:51,710 --> 00:59:49,200
been one of the main ones yeah I I see

1464
00:59:55,940 --> 00:59:51,720
UFOs as being in there with all the

1465
00:59:58,160 --> 00:59:55,950
other conspiracy theories people will

1466
01:00:00,650 --> 00:59:58,170
look the more you prove that they don't

1467
01:00:04,190 --> 01:00:00,660
exist the more they believe that they

1468
01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:04,200
exist you reinforce this ends a

1469
01:00:10,220 --> 01:00:07,050
conspiracy but I think

1470
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:10,230
III agree with our friend here that the

1471
01:00:18,890 --> 01:00:15,770
medical issues particularly the

1472
01:00:20,450 --> 01:00:18,900
anti-vaxxers to put it frankly they have

1473
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:20,460
blood on their hands this is a

1474
01:00:25,750 --> 01:00:23,250
conspiracy theory that kills babies and

1475
01:00:29,870 --> 01:00:25,760
as a grandfather I find that absolutely

1476
01:00:31,310 --> 01:00:29,880
abhorrent have you had to step in if you

1477
01:00:32,930 --> 01:00:31,320
don't mind me asking on the personal

1478
01:00:37,970 --> 01:00:32,940
family level with this argument at all

1479
01:00:41,810 --> 01:00:37,980
or not absolutely not but my I've had my

1480
01:00:45,740 --> 01:00:41,820
wife at a school was approached by one

1481
01:00:47,390 --> 01:00:45,750
of the teachers on the young teachers

1482
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:47,400
with her baby should i have the baby

1483
01:00:57,440 --> 01:00:51,770
immunized and i was able to give a few

1484
01:00:59,810 --> 01:00:57,450
websites having spoken to my Frank hero

1485
01:01:03,230 --> 01:00:59,820
or heroine I mean your dad say heroin

1486
01:01:06,530 --> 01:01:03,240
dr. Rashi and suggested that they look

1487
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:06,540
up immunization rather than vaccination

1488
01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:08,490
and and you start looking at some

1489
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:11,730
scientifically-based factual websites

1490
01:01:16,460 --> 01:01:14,250
and thankfully they had their child

1491
01:01:18,230 --> 01:01:16,470
backs neighbor you certainly stood up

1492
01:01:20,120 --> 01:01:18,240
the chapter you had your skeptical chops

1493
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:20,130
going on then is there a website that

1494
01:01:22,910 --> 01:01:21,570
you've got or one that you think's good

1495
01:01:24,500 --> 01:01:22,920
that people should visit for science

1496
01:01:26,540 --> 01:01:24,510
you'd like to recommend to us well it's

1497
01:01:28,850 --> 01:01:26,550
not for science but I have a business am

1498
01:01:29,930 --> 01:01:28,860
I allowed to say my website look look if

1499
01:01:31,130 --> 01:01:29,940
we've got an issue with what you've been

1500
01:01:35,990 --> 01:01:31,140
saying yeah that's probably where we

1501
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:36,000
should go Christian's com delay you well

1502
01:01:39,530 --> 01:01:37,770
look at last interview now spoken about

1503
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:39,540
almost all the 70 people that were here

1504
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:40,890
Tim do you think we should still bother

1505
01:01:45,140 --> 01:01:43,050
with UFOs bearing in mind that they are

1506
01:01:47,570 --> 01:01:45,150
real and erich von daniken is real as

1507
01:01:49,670 --> 01:01:47,580
well absolutely I've travelled in some

1508
01:01:51,050 --> 01:01:49,680
myself actually it was when you got

1509
01:01:52,760 --> 01:01:51,060
involved with the skeptical of spoke

1510
01:01:54,710 --> 01:01:52,770
workers and people with who've been in

1511
01:01:56,780 --> 01:01:54,720
the skeptical moon for quite a long time

1512
01:01:58,310 --> 01:01:56,790
that would have been one of the initial

1513
01:02:00,320 --> 01:01:58,320
issues you guys would have dealt with

1514
01:02:02,570 --> 01:02:00,330
yeah it was most definitely I think we

1515
01:02:05,090 --> 01:02:02,580
dealt with the the key issues that are

1516
01:02:06,890 --> 01:02:05,100
sort of troubling the world now UFOs

1517
01:02:08,510 --> 01:02:06,900
Bigfoot and Loch Ness monsters and

1518
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:08,520
should we still bother with that should

1519
01:02:12,860 --> 01:02:10,410
skeptics to bother with that I say we

1520
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:12,870
when you know you know you know you know

1521
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:14,490
i love it Jen aliens you know i'm

1522
01:02:20,510 --> 01:02:16,410
watching the secret UFO history

1523
01:02:22,310 --> 01:02:20,520
mate I i I'm a loch ness monster fancier

1524
01:02:25,100 --> 01:02:22,320
I've been good luck that's about three

1525
01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:25,110
times I look and as people say if there

1526
01:02:28,820 --> 01:02:26,610
isn't a monster in there there should be

1527
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:28,830
should be yes absolutely I've been to

1528
01:02:32,780 --> 01:02:30,570
the museum the museum's changed over the

1529
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:32,790
years it started off as a really cool

1530
01:02:36,830 --> 01:02:35,010
little cottage which firmly believed in

1531
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:36,840
Loch Ness monster it developed into a

1532
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:38,010
bigger building and the bigger building

1533
01:02:41,230 --> 01:02:38,970
each time we got more some more

1534
01:02:43,340 --> 01:02:41,240
scientific and less interesting

1535
01:02:45,350 --> 01:02:43,350
obviously I bring back the Loch Ness

1536
01:02:46,550 --> 01:02:45,360
monster I say the only sign of the Loch

1537
01:02:49,070 --> 01:02:46,560
Ness monster I've seen in my business

1538
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:49,080
there was a roadside Caravan selling

1539
01:03:03,599 --> 01:02:51,330
monster burgers but worried with worried

1540
01:03:12,829 --> 01:03:07,079
everyone this is trent brusky creator of

1541
01:03:19,229 --> 01:03:15,989
Dropbox is a project that's dedicated to

1542
01:03:22,049 --> 01:03:19,239
supporting skeptical secular and science

1543
01:03:24,539 --> 01:03:22,059
podcasts or new tumors by creating

1544
01:03:27,179 --> 01:03:24,549
different music for their shows you can

1545
01:03:29,549 --> 01:03:27,189
hear me on such shows as skeptic ality

1546
01:03:31,829 --> 01:03:29,559
augments by Jeff wagon his college of

1547
01:03:34,049 --> 01:03:31,839
curiosity and dog will be paid along

1548
01:03:37,640 --> 01:03:34,059
with a few other great shows if you are

1549
01:03:42,380 --> 01:03:37,650
in need of any music please go to ww

1550
01:03:59,589 --> 01:03:42,390
Dropbox sound o RG also facebook.com

1551
01:04:04,490 --> 01:04:02,150
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1552
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:04,500
zone I must say in the past week a

1553
01:04:08,990 --> 01:04:06,690
couple of days ago dr. H E and myself

1554
01:04:12,109 --> 01:04:09,000
performed our mystery investigators show

1555
01:04:13,940 --> 01:04:12,119
at a police school here in Sydney wow

1556
01:04:16,550 --> 01:04:13,950
what a great time we had and it struck

1557
01:04:19,910 --> 01:04:16,560
me when I was getting ready for the show

1558
01:04:21,800 --> 01:04:19,920
that that's the ninth year in a row the

1559
01:04:26,390 --> 01:04:21,810
mystery investigators have performed at

1560
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:26,400
Abbot's Leigh and this year 2013 mux are

1561
01:04:31,730 --> 01:04:28,410
the 10th anniversary of doing mystery

1562
01:04:33,589 --> 01:04:31,740
investigators Wow I get we must have we

1563
01:04:35,150 --> 01:04:33,599
must have given our demonstration talk

1564
01:04:38,660 --> 01:04:35,160
now to hundreds and hundreds and

1565
01:04:40,970 --> 01:04:38,670
hundreds of children both here and we've

1566
01:04:42,650 --> 01:04:40,980
done that in New Zealand and in the

1567
01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:42,660
United States a couple of shows there

1568
01:04:48,589 --> 01:04:45,570
wow I can't believe it's been 10 years

1569
01:04:51,470 --> 01:04:48,599
that's the mystery investigators a show

1570
01:04:54,109 --> 01:04:51,480
we really love doing but for this week

1571
01:05:00,320 --> 01:04:54,119
this is Richard Saunders signing off

1572
01:05:03,620 --> 01:05:00,330
from Sydney Australia you've been

1573
01:05:08,120 --> 01:05:03,630
listening to the skeptic zone visit our

1574
01:05:10,609 --> 01:05:08,130
website at www skeptics on TV for